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Thread: See what you need to see training.

  1. #1
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    See what you need to see training.

    What you’ll need.
    1. Holster
    2. Gun
    3. Sheets of white copy paper.
    4. Black marker or 2” black pasters.
    5. Tape measure.
    6. Shot timer.

    Step one:
    Get a baseline. This is about figuring out your speed and mechanics, not about achieving some set standard.

    It’s about figuring out what YOUR wobble baseline is at what speed.

    String 1:
    15 yards from a holster. Two shots in 2.0 seconds.
    Dry fire it. Then live fire it. Then dry fire it. Etc until you’ve repeated for 10 shots.

    You may throw out one flier. Use the ruler to measure the distance from the center. Look at the shot timer to get a sense of what your draw and split breakdown is. Write it on the paper and put it aside.

    The goal is to train the dry vision to the live mechanics and Vice versa. Basically what you’re seeing in the quiet of dry and how that translates over to what lands on paper.


    String 2:
    7 yards from a holster. Two shots in 1.5 seconds.
    Alternate dry and live until 10 shots elapsed.

    Same scoring rules.


    String 3:
    3 yards from a holster. Two shots in 1.0 seconds total.

    Work this one in dry 5x first. If can’t get the first shot off in dry by par, may extend time to 1.2 seconds for the drill.

    But the point of this drill is to develop the index. Even if you don’t see the sights, you’ll be working on hitting using the general silhouette and feel of the gun and over time you’ll get fast enough to get a flash of red on target.


    At the end of this, you’ll have a basic sense and data of what group size you can hit at what speed.

    AND…. the distances scale. So if you had a 4” group at 15 yards at that pace, that’s what your 2” group pace at 7 is.

    You’ll range find off the MOA scaling of the dot on target.

    I’m a big fan of alternating dry and live runs to clean up sight picture and give them tools to develop on their own.


    @Clusterfrack
    @JohnK
    @TCinVA

  2. #2
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    Why this is different than standard drills

    I’ll explain a little further why this should feel different than “regular” drills.

    In traditional drills it usually has a time parameter and a skill requirement for “medium” level accomplishment.

    This is different because you’re not actually expected to hit the target (2” paster).

    It’s more of an “aiming spot” and there is no “pass” requirement. It’s to establish a personal baseline to work from and improve.

    It’s a way to know at all times what vision of your sight corresponds to what spread of wobble and approximately how much time you need to take for that. And to train improvement in accuracy at speed… but mainly to give someone confidence of what they can and cannot hit based off vision under time pressure.

    This is why the Bakersfield 10 round COF was so effective.

    This is like a training vision regimen to succeed at things like that….

    Pick an aiming spot and improve vision correlated with what radius spread from that aiming spot in what time.

    Part of the reason why there’s not a standard to pass is that it’s different for different equipment and different mechanics and the only thing that counts at the end of the day is that YOU can know what you can hit at what speed and your vision will tell you if you’re on or not.

    That’s part of the “see what you need to see” and “shot calling” training.

    The fundamental of that is “know what you need to see” and range finding at speed is the first step of this.

    I constantly am going back to drills like this to see if I’m being honest with what I think my speed and vision are.

    It’s not about “passing” a test. It’s about improving skills no matter where they’re at.

  3. #3
    Site Supporter CCT125US's Avatar
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    Looks like I'll be the Guinea pig.

    Shot from concealment, as I left my game holster behind.

    P2000sk v1 LEM
    Iron sights

    First the targets, removing one flier as allowed. Overall time, draw and split on image.

    15 yard measured 5-3/4
    The two in the black were from the 3rd string.
    Slight vertical stringing, trending left, noticed this in dry as well.
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    7 yard also measured 5-3/4
    Didn't meet par. Group was mostly centered.
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    3 yard came in at 6-1/2
    Didn't meet par. Several strings indexed low.
    Very surprised to see that draw speed, honestly don't think I've done that with this gun.
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    Observations:

    Thumb goes on back of slide / hammer, drumstick on back strap. No need to grind in or push down, just wrap fingers, drop elbow (TPC draw). Lift gun to target. Any additional effort must be stopped / countered. No need to drive, punch, press the gun, just place it.

    Support thumb can't be touching frame as it steers the muzzle.

    Trigger finger can cause muzzle twitch when it comes off frame, into the trigger guard.

    Going for the trigger too soon seems to be counter productive. Doing so during deceleration seemed optimal.

    In order to be fast, the muscles must be relaxed.

    Following this, I shot a PR on my hit factor test. D3 from concealment at 7 yards on a B8/6. Pts divided by time.
    30/1.89 = 15.87

    Typically will do 5 reps, but I was pretty smoked and wanted to finish on a good note.

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    Taking a break from social media.

  4. #4
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    @cc125us

    Specifically what did you notice in your vision and your shots if you noticed anything going dry to live in sequence.

    You’re a good iron shooter and your iron observations might help others!

  5. #5
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    Sorry didn’t tag right

    @CCT125US

    Can you talk about the learning for vision. And how this drill helped you and how it translated to other things (if it did).

    It’s more about the discussion of learning than the actual performance numbers.

    Also why were you surprised to see those draw speeds and were you surprised to see how usable the hits were for such minimal sight confirmation? (I think this is where learning has occurred, but I want you to flesh it out)

    My other point that I’d like to make is:

    Note how the groups are pretty similar across the three different strings?

    You saw enough for the target and you scaled your vision and speed appropriately. That was the point of the drill to force scaling. You saw what you needed to see to make the same 6 inch groups no matter the distance.

    Also, the 3 yard strings might index low because height over bore and trying to see a small dot with your slide under it perhaps.
    Last edited by JCN; 12-16-2022 at 09:22 PM.

  6. #6
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    Well unfortunately using a phone as a shot timer didnt work out so well and it just didnt pick up a lot of the shots for some reason. It usually isnt this bad though.

    I think at 15 yards I didnt have a problem meeting the par time, at 7 I was close, at 3 I was slow. I was shooting a P365x with trijicon RMRcc from concealed aiwb (I dont have an owb holster). I am left handed.
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    I shot some slowish fire at 15yds at the end and it looks like my zero is high. In dryfire I can see my dot go down and right especially on my first trigger pull. Looking at my shots, this is apparent as the second shot is almost always low and right. I think my shots spread out when I got to the 7 because of the shorter time. I have to make the time up by drawing faster which means my grip is worse. At 15 I have enough time for a pretty good sight picture with the dot somewhere nearish the middle. At 7 its more a flash of red just somewhere on the paper. At 3 its just the paper in the window, I may or may not pick up the dot. I think working on grip in general and obtaining that grip quickly will make the most improvements. Luckily I have plenty of room for improvement!

    I have had a real shot timer on back order for about 4 months now. I also plan to carry a USPc with RMRcc once the slide gets milled and I get my holster so I want to retry this with my iron sighted P2000 in the mean time.
    Last edited by R_Shackleford; 12-17-2022 at 02:01 PM.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by R_Shackleford View Post
    In dryfire I can see my dot go down and right especially on my first trigger pull. Looking at my shots, this is apparent as the second shot is almost always low and right. I think my shots spread out when I got to the 7 because of the shorter time. I have to make the time up by drawing faster which means my grip is worse. At 15 I have enough time for a pretty good sight picture with the dot somewhere nearish the middle. At 7 its more a flash of red just somewhere on the paper. At 3 its just the paper in the window, I may or may not pick up the dot. I think working on grip in general and obtaining that grip quickly will make the most improvements. Luckily I have plenty of room for improvement!

    I have had a real shot timer on back order for about 4 months now. I also plan to carry a USPc with RMRcc once the slide gets milled and I get my holster so I want to retry this with my iron sighted P2000 in the mean time.
    Thanks for doing this!

    Some tips: If you don't have a shot timer you can substitute a phone app par timer and headphones. Then gauge how close you are to the times.

    The actual shot times don't really matter, it's about the improvement and forcing to try and make the time and seeing where the hits are and whether you actually don't need as much sight picture as you think you do!

    As mentioned in the training thread, I would skip the concealment for this drill. You'll never make time and you'll lose a big chunk of the purpose of the drill. Basically you're turning each stage into the next faster stage because you ate up time with concealment. Because concealment is such a fudge factor, I'd prefer people just run it without concealment instead of an arbitrary time bonus.

    I LOOOOOOVE that you're noticing what your dry trigger press is causing in live fire. And it gives you good feedback on what to work on in dry at home!

    A couple other technical things:

    1. I always establish the grip the same. I never cheat it. I don't do "scoop" draws or anything different than my standard grip establishment. My "base" draw is the same.

    2. Say my base open draw is 0.60 to get a flash of red on target at 3 yards.
    For a shot at 7 yards, I'll have the same base open 0.60 draw and then spend 0.20 seconds of vision refinement at the end to get a more stable dot picture.
    For a shot at 10 yards, I'll have the same base open 0.60 draw and then spend 0.40 seconds of vision and mechanical stability at the end to get a pretty stable dot picture and make any micro mechanical corrections I need to make.

    Example of this from a while ago:



    Also with regard to "seeing what you need to see," if I do a MAX speed concealed draw at around 0.61-0.62 s... I can get confidently on target by looking at the general gun shape indexed with what I'm feeling with my hands. So what I "need" to see at that speed and range is helped by my mechanics... I don't need to see red in the window at those speeds if the target is sufficiently close. Red dots aren't slower than irons... it's just that some people try and use the wrong sight picture for the wrong type of scenario.


  8. #8
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    Don’t worry about what the results are and don’t be embarrassed

    So I was messaging with a friend today about this drill and I wanted to reiterate that nobody should care what the results of this drill are.

    If you’re self-conscious, you don’t have to post targets or results at all. They’re mainly for you.

    What I want is the feedback of what you’re noticing and what is improving with the dry to live back to back runs.






    I’ll give you an aside. I went to the range today and I started off sucking ass. Looked like a shotgun blast from 10 yards away….

    So I buckled down and paid attention to what my hands and eyes were doing, adjusted some stance and grip and tightened up my groups at speed.

    This drill is about learning how to coach yourselves. It never ends. I’m constantly having to correct and remind myself of things I’ve forgotten.

    Don’t feel bad. Feel free to post up in the thread even if it’s just your gross observations even without posting targets and group sizes. Those parts are mainly for your own tracking and learning progress.

  9. #9
    Member Risto's Avatar
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    See what you need to see training.

    Ok. Yes for me there is no chance of making these par times from concealment. I started with my hand touching the gun and my support hand holding my shirt and coat up.









    I think I need to chunk up the process more. I definitely had a hard time tracking the dot after the first shot at these speeds. I am frankly surprised some of these made it on the paper.

    During the dry fire I adjusted my grip several times to stop the dot from moving. I did this multiple times and i feel like the subsequent live fire shots where better. But I still frequently could not go back in my minds eye and see what that second shot dot/sight picture looked like.

    As the par time got shorter I definitely felt my trigger control becoming more and more slappy and jerky with the increasing sense of urgency. Even dry firing with the 1sec time i felt kind of jerky and lots of muscle tension trying to force things too much. I only saw the dot about half of the first shots at that 1s par.

    When I could pull it together and watch the dot, I had what felt like harsh corrections and over corrections. Looked like a freakin EKG or something.

    I feel like I need remedial; how to track the dot under/after recoil.

    I definitely need to work my finesse grip more.

    I noticed several times I closed my left eye.

    I focused on the dot way too many times.

    Uggg.


    Was very interesting and fun though to try new things and approaches. I’m going to play with my grip and trigger pulls like in your videos.
    Last edited by Risto; 12-18-2022 at 09:23 PM.

  10. #10
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    @Risto awesome observations.

    Note that you don’t really need to see much more at the close up because you still got your hits.

    And the trigger is going to feel slappy at that speed.

    It’s all part of seeing (and feeling) what you need to see, nothing more and nothing less.

    What was your strong hand start position? You said “touching the gun” but does that mean lightly touching with the heel of your hand like a USPSA start or strong hand already gripping the gun (which I would discourage because establishing grip at speed is part of what we’re trying to do here as part of the drill).

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