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Thread: Continuously humbled by LEM trigger.

  1. #21
    We are diminished
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    GJM -- I think you'd find quite a few folks here who'd disagree. For every person I know who shoots a SFA better, I know one who shoots the LEM better. As such, I think it's hard to generalize that one is inherently better.

    Furthermore, as with all things, you need to examine the test. Rogers involves a lot of single shot transitions between difficult (distant) targets under time pressure. There are very few requirements for multiple shots on a single target, and when there are it's a huge target. The first shot from the holster is almost always to an equally huge close-range target, and when a ready position start is used it mandates a ready position that makes a proper press-out almost impossible. There is never an instance in which targets need to be ID'd and the entire downrange area is a free fire zone; I've witnessed a substantial number of ADs going downrange between targets at Rogers but there is no penalty except a wasted shot.

    Lest anyone think I'm picking on RSS, the same could be said for the F.A.S.T. It puts emphasis on certain things (draw to a low probability target, reload) and ignores others (movement, target id) in a way that certainly fails to represent "average" reality. Obviously I don't think that makes it a bad test just as I don't think the RSS Test is bad. But you need to understand what you're using as a basis when you start relying on its data. Just because a particular gun turns in "the best FAST" or "the best score at Rogers" or "the best score on the Humbler" doesn't make it the best gun.

    As others have said, the biggest issue many of us see with the LEM is that folks -- even folks who give it an honest try over months and thousands of rounds -- don't actually learn how to shoot it. It's different. Whether it has an advantage that makes it worth the effort to learn that different is a matter of personal choice. I happen to think the LEM is brilliant but I honestly couldn't care less whether anyone else uses it. What I care about is people making intelligent decisions based on rational factors. There's absolutely no doubt that will result in some people preferring one system, and others preferring another.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by ToddG View Post
    GJM -- I think you'd find quite a few folks here who'd disagree. For every person I know who shoots a SFA better, I know one who shoots the LEM better. As such, I think it's hard to generalize that one is inherently better.

    Furthermore, as with all things, you need to examine the test. Rogers involves a lot of single shot transitions between difficult (distant) targets under time pressure. There are very few requirements for multiple shots on a single target, and when there are it's a huge target. The first shot from the holster is almost always to an equally huge close-range target, and when a ready position start is used it mandates a ready position that makes a proper press-out almost impossible. There is never an instance in which targets need to be ID'd and the entire downrange area is a free fire zone; I've witnessed a substantial number of ADs going downrange between targets at Rogers but there is no penalty except a wasted shot.
    Todd, so I am sure what you are saying, is your statement that fifty per cent of people shoot an LEM better, and fifty per cent shoot a SFA better? You aside, I just haven't met anyone that says they shoots an LEM better.

    As to the Rogers school test, being 125 rounds, I can't imagine a more comprehensive test. As to large body shots, as you know, there are only 11 body shots out of 125, and good shooters are not spraying on those 11, but keeping them close to the spot.

    As to multiple shots on the same target, in my experience, my splits are measurably faster with an M&P than an LEM trigger.

    I am open to being educated on the LEM, despite my own experience with it. Out of curiosity, how many FAST coins have gone to shooters with an LEM trigger, do you know anyone that has shot Advanced at Rogers with an LEM trigger, and are any shooters winning matches of any sort with an LEM trigger? As a person that loves HK pistols, and owns more of them than I would admit publicly, I am not trying to run them down -- just be realistic about how they work for me.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    Todd, so I am sure what you are saying, is your statement that fifty per cent of people shoot an LEM better, and fifty per cent shoot a SFA better? You aside, I just haven't met anyone that says they shoots an LEM better.

    As to the Rogers school test, being 125 rounds, I can't imagine a more comprehensive test. As to large body shots, as you know, there are only 11 body shots out of 125, and good shooters are not spraying on those 11, but keeping them close to the spot.

    As to multiple shots on the same target, in my experience, my splits are measurably faster with an M&P than an LEM trigger.

    I am open to being educated on the LEM, despite my own experience with it. Out of curiosity, how many FAST coins have gone to shooters with an LEM trigger, do you know anyone that has shot Advanced at Rogers with an LEM trigger, and are any shooters winning matches of any sort with an LEM trigger? As a person that loves HK pistols, and owns more of them than I would admit publicly, I am not trying to run them down -- just be realistic about how they work for me.
    I prefer (and shoot better with) the LEM than SFA or SAO guns of similar trigger weight. For me to really start to see the advantages of a shorter "glass rod" type trigger, the trigger weight needs to be sub 4 pounds, otherwise I'm more likely to anticipate those triggers than the LEM. Since I'm not comfortable carrying guns with a trigger that light, this leaves me with the LEM or a TDA.

    To the best of my knowledge, no one has won a major IPSC match with the LEM. However, this has more to do with none of the top production shooters shooting an LEM than it has with any inherent qualities of the LEM trigger. I think K.C. is still using an LEM and he has won a number of smaller and possibly regional matches this year in production.

    ETA: I didn't read your question about winning matches carefully. I thought you were talking about major matches. I've won some matches shooting the LEM, so I guess that counts too.
    Last edited by joshs; 11-05-2011 at 10:34 AM.

  4. #24
    We are diminished
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    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    Todd, so I am sure what you are saying, is your statement that fifty per cent of people shoot an LEM better, and fifty per cent shoot a SFA better?
    I haven't quantified it that specifically. What I can say is that I've seen a number of students -- including a number of people on this forum -- who've switched to the LEM and found they shoot it better.

    As to the Rogers school test, being 125 rounds, I can't imagine a more comprehensive test.
    Again not trying to put down RSS in any way, but 110 or so one-shot engagements and a few doubles on a huge close range target all taken from a static position isn't my idea of comprehensive. Now I'll certainly grant you that within the realm of engaging multiple targets with one hit each under time pressure, the RSS test is very comprehensive in terms of having lots of draws, reloads, SHO and WHO shooting, etc.

    As to large body shots, as you know, there are only 11 body shots out of 125, and good shooters are not spraying on those 11, but keeping them close to the spot.
    I would submit that the shooters who are getting the best scores are the ones who treat the body shots like any other: taking the least time necessary to get acceptable hits so they have as much time as possible for the rest of that string of fire.

    As to multiple shots on the same target, in my experience, my splits are measurably faster with an M&P than an LEM trigger.
    That's an M&P with DCAEK, FSS, and/or RAM, yes?

    It's also important to define what we mean by a split in this context. My blind splits (how fast can I make the gun go bang) are faster with a Glock than an LEM, too. My practical splits (how fast the gun goes bang when I'm trying to get hits under stress, such as during the FAST) are identical or, at worst, a hundredth or two apart.

    Out of curiosity, how many FAST coins have gone to shooters with an LEM trigger,
    Out of eight people, the first two did it with DA/SA guns and all the rest have been with SFA guns. Having said that, at least three of the eight (myself, SLG, and Ernest Langdon) are now big fans of the LEM system. More to your point, the only one who's tried the LEM and gone back to an SFA was JV.

    do you know anyone that has shot Advanced at Rogers with an LEM trigger,
    You'd have to ask Rogers that question. They don't send me reports.

    Furthermore, I'm not sure what it would prove. I'm a perfect example of someone who shot Advanced at Rogers with two different systems (DA/SA and SFA), has never been there with an LEM, but likes the LEM.

    and are any shooters winning matches of any sort with an LEM trigger?
    Yes. Somewhere, there is someone with an LEM winning some kind of match.

    As a person that loves HK pistols, and owns more of them than I would admit publicly, I am not trying to run them down -- just be realistic about how they work for me.
    If you're concerned about how they work for you, stop worrying about who's done what with them.

  5. #25
    I just got an email back from Bill, and while he has shot advanced on his test with a P7M8, P7M13 and MK 23, to his knowledge nobody has shot advanced with an LEM trigger at the Rogers School (yet). No info from him as to how many people have been thru there with a LEM. This may be an opportunity for you to dust off your P30 and capture another red pin!

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    I just got an email back from Bill, and while he has shot advanced on his test with a P7M8, P7M13 and MK 23, to his knowledge nobody has shot advanced with an LEM trigger at the Rogers School (yet). No info from him as to how many people have been thru there with a LEM. This may be an opportunity for you to dust off your P30 and capture another red pin!
    Nope George, I'll be the first one to shoot advanced at RSS with LEM and capture whatever pins and needles they issue there

    So, while I am freezing my hands and other parts shooting my first match with...P30, you guys are engaged in one of my favorite discussions. That is, blondes vs brunettes. I got to tell you, I've always wanted to evolve into "blondes AND brunettes". And redheads, can't live without redheads.

    S.I.R.T needs to make a LEM pistol model; it might get expensive to shoot live ammo just to get trigger roll down.

    Anyway, thanks for advice, on and off-line. We'll see what we'll see.

  7. #27
    Member ubervic's Avatar
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    Novice chiming-in...

    What appeals to me about the LEM trigger is the fact that every single trigger pull will be identical. No hard, long pull vs short, soft pull; no decocking; no extra focus on whether I'm in DA or SA mode. With this simplicity, all I must do is draw, acquire, align sights, press and ROOLLLLLLLLLLLLLL the trigger smoothly, consistently, and straight back until the weapon goes BOOM.

    I will add that the standard (v2) LEM trigger has a noticeably "stacked" feel as one pulls through its travel, which can cause many shooter to feel that they should stage the trigger between the take-up travel and the final, BOOM-making travel. I fired my first LEM pistol---HK P2000sk---in this condition for many months before moving to the v4 configuration, and I found that the v4's considerable reduction in 'stacking' feel during the press reduced my desire/tendency to stage the trigger. This set-up enhances precision shooting as well as rapid-fire accuracy quite a bit.

    I have since sold-off my P2000sk and moved on to the P30 LEM. Naturally , I couldn't resist the Todd Green Special configuration---v3 Firing Pin Block Spring and mainspring. Though the trigger pull is somewhat long, I find the resulting trigger-press smooth, easy to modulate, and very simply & comfortably repeatable, whether firing from holster, high-ready, reload......no matter.

  8. #28
    Member JHC's Avatar
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    I have really enjoyed following this thread. I must be attuned to finding an opportunity to try out an LEM, ideally light LEM I guess. I grew up shooting DA wheelies and even after more than a dozen years of near complete dedication to SFA guns, I can still roll the revolvers with great accuracy at distances that suprise me. But even up close nowhere near the speed of a G17. So I roll with speed. If a revolver carried 15 shots on board . . .

    Thanks again.
    “Remember, being healthy is basically just dying as slowly as possible,” Ricky Gervais

  9. #29
    We are diminished
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    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    I just got an email back from Bill, and while he has shot advanced on his test with a P7M8, P7M13 and MK 23, to his knowledge nobody has shot advanced with an LEM trigger at the Rogers School (yet).
    I may need to bring a P30 with me if we do the pistol-forum.com Rogers class next year...

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by ToddG View Post
    I may need to bring a P30 with me if we do the pistol-forum.com Rogers class next year...
    You'll shoot after me then, since, as I said, I'll be the first one to get an advanced with LEM at RSS

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