Todd, I would be very interested in your results with an M&P now, compared to the Glock and HK. I so loved my HK, but despite being a proficient revolver shooter, and having years of HK experience, found I consistently underperformed with the LEM -- especially over high round count and demanding courses. I just hated life back in April at Rogers with my P30, and tonight after the conclusion of Rogers with the M&P this week, have a new red emblem on my hat.
How do you cheat?Originally Posted by ToddG
I think what was meant was that the LEM mechanism provides a shorter reset point than a DAO system, while retaining the long pull.
I really clicked with my LEM at around 10k rounds through it.
I was a Glock NY/3.5 fan previously.
Like Todd said, its all in the continuous trigger motion.
Also, the LEM really smoothes out after a few thousand rounds and the break point isn't as noticeable. This helps with the "dipping" muzzle.
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"For a moment he felt good about this. A moment or two later he felt bad about feeling good about it. Then he felt good about feeling bad about feeling good about it and, satisfied, drove on into the night."
-- Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy --
I never shot an LEM at Rogers so I couldn't say. However, of the three times I went, my worst performance was with my M&P9 (3rd trip). My best was with a SIG P220ST, pre-SRT (2nd trip). I actually did better my first time there, shooting a Beretta 92G, than I did five years later with the M&P9.
Here are my notes from Day 1 with the M&P9:
My best score of the week was a 117 Friday morning. My notes from almost every day reference trouble with getting a smooth trigger press. Nonetheless, I took home the red pin by more than 100pts. That's the thing about being top in class... a lot of it depends on the class. In '03 with the P220ST I made advanced all six tests (best score was 121) but still lost to a guy who shot better by one or two points over the course of the week. Back in '02 with the Beretta, my top score of the week was a 119 and I came in second to a guy who beat my weekly aggregate by 43 points and set a then-record of 700/750 for the week. His name is Super Dave Harrington.Goals: Beat previous best of 121
Needs Improvement: EVERYTHING! Jerking trigger like mad, not staying on the sights, not staying on target until it goes down. Absolutely horrible WHO (dropped 10 of 33 shots).
Accomplisments: Resisted urge to shoot myself for making Intermediate score.
Notes: Scored 105, Intermediate
1: 8
2: 15
3: 14 *
4: 9 *
5: 11
6: 8
7: 15
8: 16
The LEM has a shorter reset and a substantially lighter trigger pull than most DA revolvers.
Do you feel that, regardless of end-result, a fair attempt on learning it adds to one's general skills? Or it makes no difference given significant differences between the trigger systems?
This is of academic interest, I'll keep on working with it regardless until it is either a clear no-go for me (I sure hope the Gadget is out by then) or I see results.
Is it a figure of speech or you think it's going to be helpful? LEM in decocked state allows for easy dry fire in a true DAO mode; one can even do single live shots in such mode. Helpful, not?
Anyway, I went to the range for a remedial session today, concentrating on one thing only - rolling through the pull. I wasn't trying to aim much, just looked for the front sight lift. Did this on high-prob target, then small target, then added a demand part - timer signal, then two more 3x5 cards to add transitions. Didn't do follow-up shots. There were still some low shots and, surprisingly, low-left shots, but overall it actually looked reasonable. Maybe there is a hope.
I then pushed the target to 25 yards, and tried to roll at about same pace I shot 3x5s at 7 yards, and ended up with a 7 inch group. Maybe I am hopeless.
Anyway, thanks to all for advice. The advantages of P30 are so substantial to me that I am willing to stick with it. Seems like 5,000-7,000 rounds of thought-out practice should be enough to get an idea. I probably will make my entry into USPSA with a Glock tomorrow, though.
GJM. well done at Rogers!
If you want to be a good jack of all trades, certainly. It will also teach you things about a press-out that might not be as obvious with a lighter trigger or one with a more dramatic break point.
But if it doesn't work for you, you'd probably be better off spending that 5,000 rounds on the system that does work for you.
I think spending time with a true DA revolver is helpful for just about anyone.Is it a figure of speech or you think it's going to be helpful? LEM in decocked state allows for easy dry fire in a true DAO mode; one can even do single live shots in such mode. Helpful, not?
If you're thinking about pace while group shooting at 25yd, you're doing it wrong.I then pushed the target to 25 yards, and tried to roll at about same pace I shot 3x5s at 7 yards, and ended up with a 7 inch group. Maybe I am hopeless.
I'm a firm believer that the best way to ruin an attempt to transition to a new system is to switch back to a more familiar/comfortable system during the process.I probably will make my entry into USPSA with a Glock tomorrow, though.
Well, a very practical question is how does one make a call between "I've not spent enough time and effort on this" vs "It is not working for me". In my case, it seems that the former is the case given a rather short time and possibly erroneous way I've been doing it. However, I really hope I can see at least a trend over next 1-2 thousand.
You're right, and I am a bit torn here, and this is why I mentioned that, as an implicit request of comments. Being true to a principle, I should run P30. However, as I said, it is going to be a first match for me. I don't know what's more important - staying with a program, or removing an additional stressor as I am sure there is going to be a ton of new stressors for me.
Mixing platforms, specifically striker fired and LEM causes me problems. From my own experience, using one system makes my life easier.
Unless they are threatening your first bornI would stick with the P30, you might be surprised. Depending on your competition and being your first match you probably aren't going to do that well anyway so have fun.
Last edited by JohnN; 11-05-2011 at 12:46 AM.
My experience was sort of reciprocal -- last spring after thousands of rounds getting ready for Rogers, 2,500 rounds at Rogers, within one magazine I could see that I shot a Glock 17 and M&P 9 faster/better than my P30. I think someone in law enforcement might call that a clue.
Again, if you want to carry an HK, do it. I do it sometimes, but I know that I shoot an M&P and Glock better. I am not sure what an HK does better than a Glock with a gadget or M&P with a thumb safety.
I would love to have someone tell me that across a comprehensive test, like the 125 round Rogers School test, that they shoot an LEM better than an M&P or Glock. Maybe there would be an exception, but I would bet 9 out of 10 shoot the M&P or Glock better.
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