Continuously humbled by LEM trigger.

[ToddG]

Obviously, I've spoken to a significant number of people who've transitioned from a Glock/M&P/1911/etc to the LEM. Some have switched back or moved on to something else. The following is my personal observation and is not intended to give anyone a bad case of booboo lip:

The LEM is not a SFA or SAO. Some people who come from the SFA/SAO realm expect the LEM to work the same way because it's "one consistent trigger pull every shot." But it doesn't work like an SFA or SAO trigger.

• The people who basically start from scratch and re-learn trigger control slowly with the LEM tend to love it.
• The people who stand out in class as the guys who won't slow down to practice a new technique at less than 100% speed tend to drop the LEM, sometimes after many thousands of rounds of banging their heads into the wall.

SLG and I were discussing this just last week. Some folks just won't slow down, retrace their steps, and build up new/different skills. They don't want to take two steps backward in the hope that they might get three steps forward. They're often good shooters, but they rarely achieve excellence. The unfortunate part is that they often expend the time and money and ammo to become excellent, they just aren't willing to take the humble steps necessary.

Having said that, the LEM is not some kind of universal cure for bad shooting, either. Not every human being on Earth will shoot the LEM best. Heck, there are things I do with the Glock better than I did with my P30.

[YVK]

My conceptual issue with LEM is that I am having a hard time with a problem that LEM is supposed to be helpful with. I think I know why WHO stuff is difficult. I've no problem slowing down {I kind of have to, if I want to get any sort of positive reinforcement from the target) or accepting consequences of not slowing down (see results of 2012 Challenge).

I could quite possibly be overthinking this, but it would be awesomely helpful to know if I always had that much anticipation and it was masked by earlier-breaking triggers, or LEM induces this anticipation in me, or I simply have no clue in all of this.

[GJM]

Having said that, the LEM is not some kind of universal cure for bad shooting, either. Not every human being on Earth will shoot the LEM best. Heck, there are things I do with the Glock better than I did with my P30.

Todd, can you point to any skilled shooter, that in a measurable way, across a range of drills, shoots a LEM better than a Glock or M&P? In particular, any shooter that can run a LEM support hand only, at speed, comparably to a Glock or M&P?

While there surely may be a person or two that shoots the LEM better than a Glock or M&P, I would bet money that if you tested 100 shooters on the LEM versus a Glock/M&P, at most ten per cent would shoot the HK LEM better. Assuming a number of PF folks shoot LEM at Rogers, I would also lay money if they picked up a Glock on Friday, after four days of shooting LEM, their scores would go up Friday.

I can think of a number of good reasons to carry an HK LEM, but to shoot better scores than a Glock or M&P is not one of the reasons.

[apollo11]

I'm not Todd, but I shoot the LEM much better than the Glock or S&W trigger---hands down.

By better I mean, faster, more accurately both SHO and WHO (and obviously two handed). This has been true for me at speed and on low probability targets with precision.

[ToddG]

Todd, can you point to any skilled shooter, that in a measurable way, across a range of drills, shoots a LEM better than a Glock or M&P?

joshs comes immediately to mind. As I said, I shoot it better in some areas... SHO and WHO in particular, oddly enough.

I'm also willing to bet that six months after starting with a DA/SA SIG, JV will be shooting the LEM better than during his previous attempt.

[JV_]

I'm also willing to bet that six months after starting with a DA/SA SIG, JV will be shooting the LEM better than during his previous attempt.

With a borrowed gun, I'd certainly give it another try in 6 months.

It's hard for me to compare my performances with previous guns because I feel like I'm a much better shooter (overall) than I was 12-18 months ago. At the moment, I'm not all that consistent with the Sig at speed, but I know that will change with time and practice.

[jdavis]

I spend a great deal of time on this forum, I'm not an SME or a professional at any level in the firearms industry, which is why you will see very few post from me.

I have about 22,000 rounds downrange in my P30V2 all of which I shot as if it was a DA/SA trigger (staging or taking the slack out). I will normally shoot a 49/50 Dot torture almost always missing a WHO shot so I do have some skills

Last night at the range I decide to change the way I work the trigger, follow the instruction of Todd and others on the forum (one consistent trigger press) it was tough at first, if by habit I started to stage the trigger I would stop and reset my mind and the trigger. Bottom line I've never shot so well, from bullet hole drills to Changing Gears drill my shooting was improved. A lot of dry fire and a few thousand more rounds I might be ready for AFHF.

Thanks

James

[JodyH]

I'm pretty sure that I could pick up my Glock 17 and within a few days match or exceed my LEM scores on most drills and skills assessments.
But I still choose the H&K for my daily carry and training gun.
The H&K works better as a complete package for me.
I prefer a hammer to ride when carrying AIWB.
The mag release is less prone to accidental activation yet easier for me to hit when stressed. The magazines design and mag well are easier for me to hit at speed.
Parts and accessories for P2000's are "off the shelf" here locally.
Armorers and LEM knowledgeable instructors are right down the street at FLETC.

The intangibles are why I choose to give up a little in raw performance.

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk

[joshs]

I'm pretty sure that I could pick up my Glock 17 and within a few days match or exceed my LEM scores on most drills and skills assessments.

I thought this would be the case too, but when I briefly switched to a Gen4 17 last summer I didn't notice any improvements. In fact, I saw a noticeable decrease in my first shot hit percentage on low-probability targets. The only thing I can do better with a G17 compared to a P30 is blindly hammer the trigger. My splits are faster, but with a noticeable decrease in accuracy. For example, my FAST body hits with the P30 often fall within the 6 inch circle of the QPT target. I think that the slightly longer trigger movement gives the gun more time to settle before I break the next shot.

GJM,

I don't do a lot of drills that produce data to compare WHO speed shooting. I can say that my WHO FAST scores are better with the P30, but I did have slightly better WHO Acceleration results with the G17. My Switch-Hitting scores, both slow and fast, are better with the P30, but these include both SHO and WHO shooting so I'm not sure if I shot one gun better SHO than WHO.

[Doc_Glock]

I am bumping this thread because it is a great discussion. And because I love HKs, and find the LEM a super interesting trigger that can be challenging to shoot.
@YVK are you still shooting a P30 LEM?
@GJM do you still feel the same as in post #4.

Sadly ToddG can not respond😔

My $0.02 from 8-10,000 rounds of various LEM experience:

1. I can shoot it fairly decently with practice. But it takes work.
2. I tend to prefer staging the trigger carefully at speed, then breaking the shot. I don’t think rowing it like a DA trigger is helpful although that was the suggestion of several very experienced shooters in this thread. It is simply not like a DA trigger at all.
3. I think I shoot the lightest TRS better.
4. I think I shoot the shortest pre travel better (4.1?).