Shooting a carbine class with reloads?

[Jay Cunningham]

Few people and places seem to hold students truly accountable for packing lists and pre-reqs.

Because on the civilian side it's a business, and most trainers would quickly put themselves out of business if they were that rigid.

I understand the implications of sending someone home, but I wonder how many times you'd actually have to do it...

From what I've seen, it would happen a lot if checking off boxes at the beginning were a go/no-go.


Perhaps some instructors pride themselves on being hard-core about this thing, but I've been to eleventy billion various classes and I've never seen it. Most instructors don't even do a formal emergency procedures brief.

I imagine it's different if you're an LEO or .mil instructor and guys are required to show up and if they aren't 100% prepared he tells them GTFO. I can see that.

[Odin Bravo One]

There are also ranges that require you to buy your ammo from the range itself, regardless of whether you were planning to shoot factory Ammo. But that's not what I'm talking about.

I'm gently challenging the assertion that many instructors don't allow steel cased ammo and reloads. I could be wrong, as I'm not the expert on open enrollment courses. But of the handful I've taken, it was never mentioned. I also don't recall seeing it in the dozens of courses descriptions I've read.

Dipshits that can't Do what they have been instructed are precisely why I don't teach open enrollment.

I would never allow personally reloaded ammunition in a course. For the fifteen different companies I have taught for over the years, they are not allowed either.

[olstyn]

Because on the civilian side it's a business, and most trainers would quickly put themselves out of business if they were that rigid.

That, and are instructors really going to waste time checking to make sure students' ammo is all shiny and same headstamp? Even that wouldn't catch people who wet tumble and sort their brass. Of course, if somebody's anal enough to sort brass, they're probably pretty squared away on their reloading process, and their ammo will probably run without issue.

none of them had shot any of that particular ammo before. They bought it for the class.

That seems to be the true issue, not whether it's new, commercially reloaded, or personally reloaded. If people haven't vetted that gun/ammo combo, they're just asking for trouble. If, OTOH, somebody's run 3K rounds of the ammo in question through their gun(s) without issue, there's no real reason to expect that the next 3K won't run fine, too, regardless of whether it's factory new or reloads.

[Jay Cunningham]

This is probably best stated in a separate thread, but you just see all kinds of shit at shooting classes.

Probably the most "squared-away" students are the ones who have had like two or three classes. They're the ones who are terrified of being "that guy" (whatever the fuck that even really means) and they show up shitting Tiffany cufflinks.

Some of the "worst" students are the ones with elevnty billion classes under their belt... actually what it typically looks like are students with a very well-rounded skillset who tend to be friends with the instructor. Many times they show up with no fucking zero or with brand new shit they've never even shot. Or reloads because the rules don't apply to them because they're friends with the instructor.

It's just how it is.

[redbone]

Most people don't pay attention to the suggestions and requirements put out by instructors.

If the instructors writes down "500 rounds factory FMJ" and the student shows up with 500 rounds of his personal reloads... what's the instructor going to do? Kick the guy out of class?

It's within their prerogative, but typically they're going to soldier on and deal with it and hope for the best.

Not following instructions is one thing, but I'm saying those instructions don't exist. It appears that instructors (outside of Sean M, apparently) don't instruct students that they must shoot factory (brass, or otherwise) ammo.

I just looked at the gear requirements for LAV, Pat McNamara, Kyle Defoor, Jeff Gonzales, Ken Hackathorn, Northern Red, and Frank Proctor. There's no mention of reloads being prohibited. (Gonzales says bring "functional ammo", no one else says anything about ammo rather than giving a round count.)

Either they allow reloads, or they tell you at some point after signing up that reloads aren't allowed (which I doubt is how they operate.)

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I imagine its easier to prohibit them at large schools with gov clients. No one shooting on Uncle Sugar's dime comes to a class with homegrown ammo.

[orionz06]

There are also ranges that require you to buy your ammo from the range itself, regardless of whether you were planning to shoot factory Ammo. But that's not what I'm talking about.

I'm gently challenging the assertion that many instructors don't allow steel cased ammo and reloads. I could be wrong, as I'm not the expert on open enrollment courses. But of the handful I've taken, it was never mentioned. I also don't recall seeing it in the dozens of courses descriptions I've read.

From what I can tell it's largely range dependent. Many instructors, off the record, will say no steel case and no reloads, but I've yet to see anyone actually do anything about it. The instructors who teach at that range, or taught, did have their descriptions altered. The range also promoted the fuck outta the class on their own as they were able to make a killing on once fired brass.

Not following instructions is one thing, but I'm saying those instructions don't exist. It appears that instructors (outside of Sean M, apparently) don't instruct students that they must shoot factory (brass, or otherwise) ammo.

Who is gonna limit their customer base?

[Jay Cunningham]

This is what it says on my web page for Protective Carbine 1:

You MUST HAVE the following to participate: ballistic eye protection, filtered hearing protection, sturdy belt, adjusting two point sling, magazine carrier, and a semi-auto carbine of at least 5.45mm caliber.

You MUST ALSO HAVE: three spare magazines (more are better), 300 rounds of factory ammunition, weapon lubricant, and a tourniquet (SOF-T or CAT). Do your best to arrive with a 100 yard zero. You need to bring lunch.

This is what it says for my Protective Carbine 2:

You MUST HAVE the following to participate: ballistic eye protection, filtered hearing protection, sturdy belt, adjusting two point sling, carbine magazine carrier, semi-auto carbine of at least 5.45mm caliber, weapon mounted light attached to your carbine, and three spare carbine magazines (more are better).

You MUST ALSO HAVE: 750 rounds of factory carbine ammunition, 60 rounds of frangible carbine ammunition, holster (Appendix Inside the Waistband *is* allowed), semi-auto pistol of at least .380 caliber, 50 rounds factory FMJ pistol ammunition, hand held flashlight, weapon lubricant, and a tourniquet (SOF-T or CAT). Your carbine is expected to have a confirmed zero with BOTH iron sights AND optics.

[Clobbersaurus]

I've seen students shoot all manner of ammo at courses. The worst for malfunctions I've witnessed, bar none, have been Tula and Barnaul.

I think that unless you are a relatively famous instructor, being rigid with ammo restrictions is a sure fire way to starve.

Competition instructors would never get away with banning reloaded ammo.

[Odin Bravo One]

All yours.

[cheshire_cat]

Dipshits that can't Do what they have been instructed are precisely why I don't teach open enrollment.

Yeah stupid civilians and non-cops!