.380 defensive ammo

[BehindBlueI's]

I keep going back to the LG chart and an curious of folk's thoughts on the Pow'RBall 70gr. I agree expansion might not mean as much in the .380 as penetration (and of course 100% feeding reliability). But where does velocity come in to play? How many fps is considered adequate?

Velocity? It doesn't. None will approach the point where speed increases wounding.

Really, getting the bullet into vitals, including those shielded by bone, is what matters. How it does it is irrelevant. 70gr strikes me as very light to do well vs bone, but that's speculation only.

[nycnoob]

I kind of knew this thread would end this way. I should have just looked at the LG data and moved on. I had hoped for some help interpreting or in my mind balancing the aforementioned factors - penetration, expansion, and muzzle velocity.

[. . . ]

I agree expansion might not mean as much in the .380 as penetration (and of course 100% feeding reliability). But where does velocity come in to play? How many fps is considered adequate?

I am certainly no expert but I did read a few of the wound ballistic books Doc recommends. The wound model is simple, they are just measuring the volume of the hole.

(Book: Bullet Penetration Ducan MacPherson P87 "Analytical Modeling of Bullet Penetration")

So what is the trade off of penetration to expansion? They are treated equally since wider and shorter is similar to narrow and longer.

Velocity does not factor into it at all so there is no trade-off.

"How many fps is considered adequate?" once again wrong question. Traditionally the ballistics people do not even agree if they should use energy or momentum as a measure, in Docs writings he says neither matters he just looks at the gelatin since well designed ammo will work with vastly different metrics he does not have much stock in the number only the results.

I posted the quote from Doc above because it is my understanding he views his ammo tests as a mostly pass/fail sort of test. You are asking him for the best ammo that failed. I can not imagine that he has an answer for that. His previous answer was to not use the failure ammo but to use waddcutter ammo.

If you read the books you will see that of all the ammo shapes waddcutter will make a larger diameter hole then the bullet caliber, so in fact you can see doc is again going back to the model of "volume of the hole" matters and he picks something which penetrates deep but makes a wide hole.

I am not trying to be snarky here but I think you are missing the point. Your question has been answered but you are just thinking about this all wrong. Doc is looking first for something which penetrates deep then for something which expands to a wider (and wadcutter like) diameter if it does not meet the requirements then he does not recommend it.

[JHC]

Thank you. That is a good thread. I didn't find it. Almost makes me want to abandon JHP altogether and stick with the small stockpile of Black Hills FMJ I have on hand.

Please keep the input coming. Yes, I do understand the weakness of the .380acp but there are times when I drop a G42 or LCP Custom in my pocket or on my ankle.

My primary carry is a G43.

I only load good quality ball in my G42. I just want a reliable deep ice pick by the time I get to the 42.

[Chuck Whitlock]

Personally, I would be tempted to just go with FMJ. Expansion isn't much good without penetration. I don't keep up with .380 as I don't own one, but would need some convincing that a expanding bullet that hit a rib would have enough oomph left to get to vitals.

My caveat on that is that the manufacturers' QC on their premium lines (Critical Defense/Gold Dot/ etc.) is going to be better than their target/plinking lines. I'm not aware of any premium FMJ lines out there.

In the Hornady offerings, while the XTP projectile ought to work better than the FTX, it is only available in the brass-cased Custom and American Gunner lines. My gut feeling is that the nickeled cases of the CD lines offers slightly better odds for reliable feeding and extraction, in the little guns, and I'm willing to trade a little penetration for reliability. Plus, I just about have to find and order XTP, while I can easily find Critical Defense nearly any place that sells .380 ammo over the counter.

[VolGrad]

I only load good quality ball in my G42. I just want a reliable deep ice pick by the time I get to the 42.

So let's take that one a bit further. What is a good quality ball ammo choice? I only see cheap range ammo on the shelves and don't know what to look for online as I have never looked for "good" ball ammo.

[Chuck Whitlock]

I think we just typed past each other.

[BehindBlueI's]

So let's take that one a bit further. What is a good quality ball ammo choice? I only see cheap range ammo on the shelves and don't know what to look for online as I have never looked for "good" ball ammo.

S&B worked well for me when I had a .380. It ran reliably in my future ex-wife's Bersa Thunder. A buddy of mine carried a PPK and we used to buy bulk orders from Natchez. My dad currently uses a surplus Makarov and S&B has worked fine for him as well. I've not chrono'd it myself, but common wisdom is it's a bit hotter than most target loads. Run a few hundred rounds through your gun and see if it feeds reliably for you, but I'd be really surprised if it doesn't.

[texasaggie2005]

So, you are out at the school, stadium, mall, hospital, club, etc... and a jihadist comes in with a rifle and starts shooting like recently has occurred in CA and FL; do you want to have a G43 or a G19?

It is always best to avoid any confrontation which might involve the use of lethal force--in those times a .380 is probably fine; however, the whole reason most dialed-in folks carry a handgun are for when unexpected situations explode in their face and there are literally no other options than fight or someone will die. In such circumstances, something more effective than .380 is comforting. With judicious clothing selection, I am quite able to carry a G19, M&P, or 1911 in virtually any setting, including hiking, rock climbing, bicycling, equestrian events, as well as in formal attire, business suits, work garb, casual clothing, and even at the beach in a swim suit and T-shirt. There are few situations I can envision being unable to carry anything but a small .380 instead of a more effective handgun.

Respectfully,

Get a bigger gun isn't always the only answer. Could we get some guidance for those people who;

a) are not dialed in...

b) looked at their individual life style and threat matrices, and determined that a .380 will solve 99.99% of any anticipated threat...

c) who have honestly tried to get an "approved" gun to work with their clothing, work environment, physical condition and "tactical mindset" but could never make it work well enough to their comfort and satisfaction...

d) those who really don't care about any of the above, but have chosen a .380 and are totally fine with that decision regardless of their knowledge of above points.

Example: I have a couple friends who have chosen to purchase and carry a .380 everyday. One literally chose a raspberry colored LCP simply because she liked the color and the gun store had a holster that fit her purse. She has zero desire about any details, and only asks for specifics; "what bullets do I buy?" Not my personal first choice when she asked me about concealed carry. But answering "get a bigger gun" is not productive and would only have her turn to other, possibly less reliable sources of information or fall victim to false marketing to help her make her choices.

Without some sort of guidance, it's difficult to steer somebody towards decent performing ammo, when there are five other kinds of JHP on the shelf we all know are junk.

[JHC]

So let's take that one a bit further. What is a good quality ball ammo choice? I only see cheap range ammo on the shelves and don't know what to look for online as I have never looked for "good" ball ammo.

Your Black Hills might be as good as it gets. I think (but don't KNOW) that GECO and Fiocchi are pretty good. I have a few mags loaded with the Winchester load that has the flat point. I've never had any of these fail to fire so . . . ?

I've run some of the Leheigh penetrator loads (just 40) just fine but not sure about spending hundreds on a proper vetting.

Does Speer Lawman line have a .380 load?

[TGS]

I only load good quality ball in my G42. I just want a reliable deep ice pick by the time I get to the 42.

Ditto.

My caveat on that is that the manufacturers' QC on their premium lines (Critical Defense/Gold Dot/ etc.) is going to be better than their target/plinking lines. I'm not aware of any premium FMJ lines out there.

In the Hornady offerings, while the XTP projectile ought to work better than the FTX, it is only available in the brass-cased Custom and American Gunner lines. My gut feeling is that the nickeled cases of the CD lines offers slightly better odds for reliable feeding and extraction, in the little guns, and I'm willing to trade a little penetration for reliability. Plus, I just about have to find and order XTP, while I can easily find Critical Defense nearly any place that sells .380 ammo over the counter.

I take exception with your assessment on quality FMJ.

I've never had a complaint with any of my ammo from Buffalo Bore. Similarly, I've found S&B and Fiocchi 380 (as well as their 9mm) to be of good quality.

Does Speer Lawman line have a .380 load?

Yes. Probably another solid choice.

GECO was also mentioned.....I don't know if I've fired their 380, but if they produce it to the same standards as their 9mm I'd just buy that and never look back (assuming it passed a function test in my specific piece).