Orlando nightclub shooting

[41magfan]

I'm just a little concerned that this even needs to be said;

We don't preemptively act against people in this country for what they "might" do - unless it's a form of conspiracy. Other countries do that, but they're not real safe either.

Cases against suspicious people and/or activities are opened and investigated on a continual basis by Federal, State & Local agencies. If no crime has been committed, then there's nothing to do preemptively but wait and watch. If the risk is high value, then someone is assigned to do some level of monitoring, but there's a limit to how much of that can be done. There aren't enough LEO's on the planet to "bird dog" every knucklehead that has some potential to be a violent.

Lastly, activities like beating your wife, being an asshole to your coworkers, talking trash about American values, public policies, or expressing religious intolerance is as common as dirt.

Assigning risk to guys like Mateen would be like trying to ID which mosquitos are carrying the Zika virus.

[Gadfly]

it seems to me there was enough "cause" to keep the case open. So assuming its true and accurate, talk of Islam and killing people would not constitute enough concern to keep the case open?

What do you think is involved with keeping a case open? Do we follow the guy around? We can, but it takes about 20 people to cover a 24hour surveillance. How long do we spend on one guy, when we may have 20 suspicious persons called in per week? And that's just suspicious persons, what about actual real crimes in progress we have to deal with? Do those get put on hold while we follow around one guy to see what he is doing?

I am currently assigned the boring duty of looking for student overstays who never left the US after their visa expired. They are demographically exactly what you expect of terror suspects. Young, single, middle eastern males from third world countries who historically hate America. My job is to find and hopefully deport them. I have five sitting on my desk right now. So does everyone else in my group. We have hundreds more waiting to go. How much time can I devote to each one? Do I look for a few days and if I cant find him, close the case...or should I keep looking for the one and ignore the hundred other just like him that are stacked up and waiting to go? We arrested 5 out of about 25 we were assigned last week. Guess what, we got 100 new files sent from HQ to look for in the same time frame.

You can not possibly focus on one person because MAYBE he will do something bad.

[shane45]

My personal thoughts run much more towards the things Tam and 41magfan have written. I'm personally ok with making just about everyone responsible for their own safety, as that is actually the case whether you agree or not.

Professionally, I have been trained very well, and try not to jump to conclusions, or let my personal beliefs interfere with my professional responsibilities.

Like I said before, maybe the FBI was wrong in how they handled things, IDK. Until I KNOW, I'm not going to cast doubt on a very complex situation.

SLG, I think its a fair statement, and with all due respect, to say that you should consider the fact that this is a public forum. Although very well behaved and full of professionals, if you react to speculation on a public forum, I think its misplaced.

[GJM]

I'm just a little concerned that this even needs to be said;

We don't preemptively act against people in this country for what they "might" do - unless it's a form of conspiracy. Other countries do that, but they're not real safe either.

Cases against suspicious people and/or activities are opened and investigated on a continual basis by Federal, State & Local agencies. If no crime has been committed, then there's nothing to do preemptively but wait and watch. If the risk is high value, then someone is assigned to do some level of monitoring, but there's a limit to how much of that can be done. There aren't enough LEO's on the planet to "bird dog" every knucklehead that has some potential to be a violent.

Lastly, activities like beating your wife, being an asshole to your coworkers, talking trash about American values, public policies, or expressing religious intolerance is as common as dirt.

Assigning risk to guys like Mateen would be like trying to ID which mosquitos are carrying the Zika virus.

So what you are saying is that LE can't protect you from every threat, especially when the threat comes from a first time violent offender. Well, if LE can't protect us, I guess that only leaves us able to protect ourself from a crazy.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Thoughts on this: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/14/op...f=opinion&_r=0

Supposedly has some court supervision. However, if it is secret - once you are turned down, then what. You know.

[GardoneVT]

Well, I haven't come to a conclusion. I haven't made assumptions. Im asking questions. If a suicide bomber got on a plane with a machine gun and 10 pounds of C4, is it a fair question on how he got past security? I think its a fair question to ask how his case got closed considering what looks like a preponderance of evidence that I would think would keep the case open. Lets assume your right and a policy to close a case in a given timeframe turned out to be the trigger that got this case closed, do you not think that policy may need to be reviewed?

Careful.

Some folks outside of this forum believe discussions of self reliance and armed personal defense is racist crazy talk worthy of government investigation.......

[shane45]

What do you think is involved with keeping a case open? Do we follow the guy around? We can, but it takes about 20 people to cover a 24hour surveillance. How long do we spend on one guy, when we may have 20 suspicious persons called in per week? And that's just suspicious persons, what about actual real crimes in progress we have to deal with? Do those get put on hold while we follow around one guy to see what he is doing?

I am currently assigned the boring duty of looking for student overstays who never left the US after their visa expired. They are demographically exactly what you expect of terror suspects. Young, single, middle eastern males from third world countries who historically hate America. My job is to find and hopefully deport them. I have five sitting on my desk right now. So does everyone else in my group. We have hundreds more waiting to go. How much time can I devote to each one? Do I look for a few days and if I cant find him, close the case...or should I keep looking for the one and ignore the hundred other just like him that are stacked up and waiting to go? We arrested 5 out of about 25 we were assigned last week. Guess what, we got 100 new files sent from HQ to look for in the same time frame.

You can not possibly focus on one person because MAYBE he will do something bad.

Gadfly I think your getting into the weeds here. Suggesting a case remains open does not equal suggesting a full surveillance package. My gut tells me some information will reveal its self that would have tripped the radar of an open case. We will see.

[jwperry]

Anyone else confirmed this story?
http://gawker.com/multiple-people-sa...gay-1781932976

[shane45]

Careful.

Some folks outside of this forum believe discussions of self reliance and armed personal defense is racist crazy talk worthy of government investigation.......

Yes, Im well aware, I live in NJ!!!!!!!!!

[karmapolice]

Shane45 you are making a lot of assumptions of what evidence was there in the past based of information that came to light after the incident. The ex-wife has stated that he abused her in the past but do we know that she called the police then? If not then how could the FBI know about it let alone local police if it was never reported? The preponderance of evidence of him being an asshole and having anti american views may have been there but again as others have stated that is not a go to jail offence and it shouldn't be. The Federal and Local police are not the thought police, yes there can be conspiracy charges but those require certain things to be made and I'm confident that the FBI or Local police would make charges on the shooter if they had charges to make. Also you have to consider that if they had the feeling he was a shit bag but didn't have enough and stretched a charge just to feel good about getting him off the streets it would have lasted all about a day or less.That also would have made it that much harder to get him if he actually did something later that could have landed him in jail. Also GJM anyone can criticize the police but they better be prepared to have an idea of what they are talking about and most folks to don't have the beginning of a basic understanding of how the justice systems works especially LE. There are so many what ifs in the conversation about his past investigations by the FBI and we do not have all the facts and that is what SLG is saying. I agree with him if they did indeed fact drop the ball then I will be pissed but we have no idea what lead to the investigations and or their closing and or if they might have still be open at this time.