Orlando nightclub shooting

[John Hearne]

If people have real NPE concerns, that's fine. I'm not talking about them. I'm talking about those who are allowed and able to carry real guns, but choose not to for convenience or fashion.

I think it's a combination of ignorance and denial.

There are a lot of people who carry a pistol as a ballistic talisman. They want to be technically "armed" but not effectively armed. To accept that they might need a bigger pistol is to accept that there are problems in the world that require that much pistol. To accept that there is a problem that can't be solved with a Keltec .32 is to accept a world that is more scary than they want.

There is also an ignorance factor. If all they've ever had is a basic CCW course, they are ignorant and largely uneducated. They may think that that passing a sobriety course of a qualification shows that they are good enough. They many no appreciation of how limited they are by their equipment. In the interests of full disclosure, I carried just a J-Frame and a speed strip back in the 90's. It wasn't until I started to shoot IDPA that I realized there were holster options that let me carry a full-size pistol.

[JFK]

People are projecting their values/world-view onto others.

Just because they aren't willing to use violence to settle a matter doesn't mean someone else isn't and the cognitive dissonance is overwhelming.

The fact that someone might ENJOY using violence to settle a matter causes them to seize. They literally "cannot compute."

This is the same reason people freeze in a street crime situation. Good people can not comprehend evil. Most good people can't even place their though process in that sort of thinking. This is what makes them good people. We are at a serious disadvantage to evil.

The problem is that these people are not even crazy. Crazy acts yes, but crazy people I think not. They are motivated, principled, and unwavering.

[SLG]

I think it's a combination of ignorance and denial.

There are a lot of people who carry a pistol as a ballistic talisman. They want to be technically "armed" but not effectively armed. To accept that they might need a bigger pistol is to accept that there are problems in the world that require that much pistol. To accept that there is a problem that can't be solved with a Keltec .32 is to accept a world that is more scary than they want.

There is also an ignorance factor. If all they've ever had is a basic CCW course, they are ignorant and largely uneducated. They may think that that passing a sobriety course of a qualification shows that they are good enough. They many no appreciation of how limited they are by their equipment. In the interests of full disclosure, I carried just a J-Frame and a speed strip back in the 90's. It wasn't until I started to shoot IDPA that I realized there were holster options that let me carry a full-size pistol.

I certainly agree with all of that. However, do you think that applies to our co-workers as well? I'm sometimes at a loss to understand a career LEO deciding that fashion or convenience is more important than their duty gun (which they are barely competent with anyway). Especially today. Past threats, current threats, emerging threats, and all that. Maybe we should just go back to wearing IIA? (the armor thing is where I first learned about past threats vs. emerging threats, some 23 years ago. I think it's a good model for a lot of this stuff.)

[shane45]

Im placing my bet that a woman was the catalyst of the shooters radicalization. Also, does anyone know how long it was before SWAT entered? I wondering if there was a delay giving the shooter time to do executions. The high casualty count is what makes me wonder about this.

[Palmguy]

Im placing my bet that a woman was the catalyst of the shooters radicalization. Also, does anyone know how long it was before SWAT entered? I wondering if there was a delay giving the shooter time to do executions. The high casualty count is what makes me wonder about this.

Incident started at 0200, SWAT entered at 0500.

[BES]

Im placing my bet that a woman was the catalyst of the shooters radicalization. Also, does anyone know how long it was before SWAT entered? I wondering if there was a delay giving the shooter time to do executions. The high casualty count is what makes me wonder about this.

Timeline (summarized) :

0200: Shooting erupts, 2 uniform off duty officers working security respond and exchange fire with BG. 1 Officer wounded. BG retreats back into club continuing to shoot.

0222: Shooter calls 911 makes pledge to ISIS

0500: SWAT makes entry with armored vehicle, gunfight ensues, kills BG

Here's where I got that info http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/12/us/orl...ting-timeline/

[shane45]

Thank you!

[GJM]

I think it's a combination of ignorance and denial.

There are a lot of people who carry a pistol as a ballistic talisman. They want to be technically "armed" but not effectively armed. To accept that they might need a bigger pistol is to accept that there are problems in the world that require that much pistol. To accept that there is a problem that can't be solved with a Keltec .32 is to accept a world that is more scary than they want.

There is also an ignorance factor. If all they've ever had is a basic CCW course, they are ignorant and largely uneducated. They may think that that passing a sobriety course of a qualification shows that they are good enough. They many no appreciation of how limited they are by their equipment. In the interests of full disclosure, I carried just a J-Frame and a speed strip back in the 90's. It wasn't until I started to shoot IDPA that I realized there were holster options that let me carry a full-size pistol.

It is also possible they are fully informed and made a decision to carry the mouse gun because they have a relative who is a PF member, does drills of the week almost daily, is always slow to get out of the house because he is dressing around the gun, and routinely exceeds their family bucket of smartphone data by constantly posting on PF.

[BES]

I'm not clear on what the hell was going on from 0200 to 0500 when SWAT made entry. From what I gather that time accounts for when he was killing the majority of people inside. There's a slow sporadic cadence of gunfire coming from inside heard in video footage during the 0200-0430 time frame.

[BWT]

Horrible, simply horrible.

I'll be praying for those and their families involved.

God Bless,

Brandon

ETA:

I'm not clear on what the hell was going on from 0200 to 0500 when SWAT made entry. From what I gather that time accounts for when he was killing the majority of people inside. There's a slow sporadic cadence of gunfire coming from inside heard in video footage during the 0200-0430 time frame.

I hate to say it, and this isn't mean to be condescending to LE. But, I think it's a stark reminder why those of us with CWP's need to be carrying.

Police can't be everywhere at once, and who knows if they'll negotiate or how long that process will take, etc. First priority seems to me to be contain the scene of the crime then prepare a response.

That can be a long time (perhaps too long) for those among these guys.

It seems the MO of terrorists is to go after large gatherings of unarmed people which is unfortunately business as usual for mass shooters.