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Thread: Orlando nightclub shooting

  1. #751
    Dot Driver Kyle Reese's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AMC View Post
    Under our proposed new Use of Force policies, when responding to any incident involving an armed subject we are to create time and distance and use thoughtful communication to attempt to resolve the incident without force.
    Isn't that analogous to what unarmed police in the UK do? Cordon off an area when an armed threat is present, and call in their version of SWAT?

  2. #752
    Quote Originally Posted by TYR View Post
    Isn't that analogous to what unarmed police in the UK do? Cordon off an area when an armed threat is present, and call in their version of SWAT?
    Lots of agencies here teach this, including some of the biggest.

    Patrol is often thought to be incapable of purposeful fighting, so isolate and contain is their job, while tac gets called.

  3. #753
    Site Supporter hufnagel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duelist View Post
    Hufnagel - there is some truth to that analysis. Arabic does use a basic three letter root system for most words, and many related words and forms of words can be built on any given root. When English speakers are teaching and learning the Arabic root word structure, frequently, a nonsense word called FML or FaMaLa (First, Middle, Last) is used to help memorize the bewildering patterns and structures and derivative forms.

    There are three vowels that are always written. Two of them are sometimes used as consonants. There are at least three more vowels that are usually only written in scriptures, including Christian texts and the Qur'an, and childrens' readers.

    There are many native Arabic speakers who are not Muslim. There are many Muslims who have, at best, only a rudimentary understanding of Arabic and its history.

    There is also some truth in the analysis of what you can take or interpret the various forms of SLM to mean. But, in reading it, there seems too much of the diatribe of someone who wishes to demonize any and every person who has ever said the Shahada with meaning or spoken Arabic or been sympathetic to any Muslim person. I have great friends who are Muslim. I have gone to war against Jihadists who wanted to impose Sharia on the world. It is possible to be a good Muslim and a good American. I don't think any of the Jihadists would call someone who adheres to Islam as their religion but doesn't believe in Sharia as the law they would like to live under as being very good Muslims, though, any more than those Jonesboro Baptists would probably even consider me a Christian.
    Thanks for that, Duelist. I recognized a certain slant in the descriptions as well. Having ZERO background on the actual Arabic language means I have a large learning curve to follow if I wanted to get deeper into it. And I agree and thoroughly believe there are good Muslims who are also good Americans, just as I know every religion has it's "strong outliers." Most people just want to live their happy (or miserable?) lives, free from oppressive intervention by government or criminal activity. Leave me alone on my little plot of dirt and I'll do the same for you. For me I guess it comes down to Sharia... you can't be an an American and support it. I'm a fairly tolerant person, but I'd have to be intolerant towards someone who wants to enact Sharia law in my community or at any level of government in the United States.
    Last edited by hufnagel; 06-20-2016 at 07:17 PM.
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  4. #754
    Site Supporter hufnagel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SLG View Post
    Lots of agencies here teach this, including some of the biggest.

    Patrol is often thought to be incapable of purposeful fighting, so isolate and contain is their job, while tac gets called.
    Do you think maybe an institutional shift will or should occur regarding that?
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  5. #755
    Quote Originally Posted by hufnagel View Post
    Do you think maybe an institutional shift will or should occur regarding that?
    I don't know. That is, I have mixed feelings about it.

    The cops on this board are exceptions, in my experience. They prove that through the self selection of being here.

    Most cops are not into guns, not into tactics, not into training, and didn't take the job to fight terrorists. There isn't even a legal requirement that they protect anyone. I find it hard to work with those people.

    Some took the job because they applied to fire and sanitation and the PD called them first. I don't like working with those.

    The guys I like working with are the tac guys. So, maybe 1% of all cops. If your agency doesn't have a tac team but you are on here, you probably qualify in my mind, though guns are one thing, physical fitness and tactics are another.

    Then there is the whole "you get the policing you deserve." That has been thrown around on here quite a bit lately. As a libertarian and an American, I think your safety really is up to you, and I don't expect the cops to look after me or mine. Not because I wouldn't appreciate it, because I would. Rather, because that's just not the real world. As everyone here knows.

    So, should we force a policy change? I don't think so.

    I think we should force a hiring standards change. And a training standards change. And a "taking responsibility and backing your guys up" change. Most LE management sucks.

    When you combine all these issues, I don't think it is reasonable to expect the thin blue line to act as a front line counter terrorist force. As I said before, running into a school, looking for a kid who isn't looking for you is one thing. It's another to make a deliberate or hasty assault, when none of your training or experience tells you or shows you how to do that.

    Some rise to the occasion. Most don't.

  6. #756
    Site Supporter hufnagel's Avatar
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    A fair enough analysis that I can't refute. Thank you.
    Rules to live by: 1. Eat meat, 2. Shoot guns, 3. Fire, 4. Gasoline, 5. Make juniors
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  7. #757
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    Quote Originally Posted by TYR View Post
    Isn't that analogous to what unarmed police in the UK do? Cordon off an area when an armed threat is present, and call in their version of SWAT?
    As a matter of fact, that is exactly who they wish us to emulate. PERF brought out the Chief of the Scottish Police Service, and he gave a lecture and showed videos to our commissioned officers. It was not well received. Their tactics for dealing with edged weapons evolved in a place where the officers are unarmed by law, where self-defense is illegal, and where the legal system places criminals on the same "value plane" as everyone else. And all of the videos were of simulated training exercises. No actual deployments of the nonsense they were recommending. When this was pointed out to them, the Chief and Chuckie Wexler became incensed.

  8. #758
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    Quote Originally Posted by voodoo_man View Post
    don't know if this was posted or not but totally worth a watch even though its 30 mins

    Haney was just on Hannity.
    Too short a segment. Interesting.
    Will make time to watch this video soon.
    Thanks.
    "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." - Thomas Jefferson, Virginia Constitution, Draft 1, 1776

  9. #759
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    So does the FBI initially releasing the transcripts of the 911 calls cleansed of the references to Islamic terrorists give an indication of a pc policy at large in that agency?

  10. #760
    Quote Originally Posted by AMC View Post
    When this was pointed out to them, the Chief and Chuckie Wexler became incensed.
    I don't care if a new thread has to be started, but I sure would like to hear more about this.
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