Are CZs best as range/game guns?

[Earlymonk]

Hi, all:

As I go through the process of this search, a CZ PCR (massaged by CZ Custom) has emerged as a leading candidate. The trouble is I don't see a lot about CZs as serious LE/SD guns on P-F or elsewhere in the US shooting community. OTOH, they seem to be burning up the gaming world.

What gives? Are bunches of non-US cops wrong? Have I been brainwashed by Mike Pannone (a distinct possibility)?

Or is there something fundamentally at issue with the design, durability, etc. of CZs?

Thanks for your thoughts...

[Talionis]

Hi, all:

As I go through the process of this search, a CZ PCR (massaged by CZ Custom) has emerged as a leading candidate. The trouble is I don't see a lot about CZs as serious LE/SD guns on P-F or elsewhere in the US shooting community. OTOH, they seem to be burning up the gaming world.

What gives? Are bunches of non-US cops wrong? Have I been brainwashed by Mike Pannone (a distinct possibility)?

Or is there something fundamentally at issue with the design, durability, etc. of CZs?

Thanks for your thoughts...

CZ's are superb guns. I would have no issues with someone choosing to carry something like a PCR as long as they know what they are getting into.

If you practice with any kind of frequency (which you absolutely should) parts will break. Not just in live fire. I have friends who have snapped trigger return springs on dry-fire only backup guns without a shot through them in that time.

With the given that you will break stuff on your CZ with much more frequency than something like an HK, it becomes much more necessary to either have multiple versions of the the gun or be your own armorer and follow an aggressive preventative maintenance schedule.

Most people I know who shoot CZ's in volume have at least one backup gun set-up the same as their primary. One gets shot in practice, the other in matches. Most people I know who shoot CZ's also discovered the importance of preventative maintenance the hard way by breaking something like a trigger return spring or slide stop at a match.

I was one of the brave (dumb?) few who shot a little over a full season with only one CZ. I did it by being aggressive with early spring changes, having a "match slide stop" and a "practice slide stop" etc. Even with that, I broke several trigger return springs in practice (and once at a local match) as well as at least one slide stop, a rear sight, and probably something else. I did put nearly 30k rounds through the gun in that time, and it had over 10k on it before I bought it. Interestingly, shortly after I sold it, the slide cracked and the new owner had to source a replacement slide.

To re-iterate: A CZ can be an excellent carry gun IF you know what you're getting in to.

[GJM]

Talionis nailed this, and Pepperoni will probably be along shortly to say the same thing.

If I was going to carry a CZ, it would be a lightly tuned P07/09. Still a good shooter, but less PM intensive. If it had to be metal, it would be a 92 Compact instead of a P01/PCR.

[Talionis]

Upon skimming the linked thread, have you had a chance to try any of these guns to check things like trigger reach, Earlymonk? I got the impression hand size is a major issue for you. CZ's have a nice small grip, but the DA is pretty long, even with the deep curved trigger. GJM's Beretta recommendation is likely to have similar trigger reach issues for you.

[Earlymonk]

CZ's are superb guns. I would have no issues with someone choosing to carry something like a PCR as long as they know what they are getting into.

...With the given that you will break stuff on your CZ with much more frequency than something like an HK, it becomes much more necessary to either have multiple versions of the the gun or be your own armorer and follow an aggressive preventative maintenance schedule.

Just super helpful, Talionis. Thank you! I don't come close to the sort of annual round count that many P-Fers do and wonder what you'd recommend. (I'm a sub 5000/year, for sure.)

If I was going to carry a CZ, it would be a lightly tuned P07/09. Still a good shooter, but less PM intensive. If it had to be metal, it would be a 92 Compact instead of a P01/PCR.

Thanks, GJM. Unless the DA reach can be shortened on the CZ polymers (beyond backstrap changes), I think I'm out of luck on that score. OTOH, I've got to find a 92 Compact in the wild and see if it will work for me...

CZ's have a nice small grip, but the DA is pretty long, even with the deep curved trigger.

That was my experience in the LGS with factory rubber. Have you found that thinner grips make the DA shorter?

[Earlymonk]

To re-iterate: A CZ can be an excellent carry gun IF you know what you're getting in to.

Upon further thought, it seems instructive (a clue!) that many experienced shooters understand what would be involved with having a CZ EDC--i.e., they know what they are getting into--and choose not to. It seems that experienced shooters have collectively come to the conclusion that there are better options.

Perhaps CZs introduction of the Omega system is an effort to simplify/strengthen the design & achieve Glock/HK/M&P type reliability?

[Talionis]

Just super helpful, Talionis. Thank you! I don't come close to the sort of annual round count that many P-Fers do and wonder what you'd recommend. (I'm a sub 5000/year, for sure.)
...
Thanks, GJM. Unless the DA reach can be shortened on the CZ polymers (beyond backstrap changes), I think I'm out of luck on that score. OTOH, I've got to find a 92 Compact in the wild and see if it will work for me...
...
That was my experience in the LGS with factory rubber. Have you found that thinner grips make the DA shorter?

Glad you found it helpful. What would I recommend as far as practice round count? As much as possible A happy medium for me is generally between 15 and 20k a year, but I'm trying to be competitive at a fairly high level. Skill level is a lot more dependent on focused practice and the ability to diagnose and correct weak areas than it is on round count, in my experience. If you were referring to round count of preventative maintenance, then something like a full re-spring every 5k and swapping in a new slide stop every 10k would be a decent starting point.

Last I knew, Cajun Gun Works was offering a reduced reach trigger modification for the P07/P09 CZ's, which would be a decent option if you don't plan to ever compete with them.

In my experience, trigger reach is much more related to the relationship of trigger face to backstrap of the gun than it is to width of side panels. That being said, the thin grips do change that at least a bit.

[Earlymonk]

Glad you found it helpful. What would I recommend as far as practice round count?

My question was totally unclear, sorry! (Though I very much appreciate the recommendations on round count!) What I was wondering was--given that my low(ish) count of <5000/year was unlikely to increase, i.e., one 2000-round class, plus maintenance training--might I be well served by the PCR and not need to go to a gun in the "shoot and ignore" category (not that that's really a thing!)? Assuming good record keeping and annual maintenance, of course.

Last I knew, Cajun Gun Works was offering a reduced reach trigger modification for the P07/P09 CZ's, which would be a decent option if you don't plan to ever compete with them.

I know they offer this for the metal guns--I'd likely need it--not sure they offer it for the polymers, but I'll definitely call and ask.

In my experience, trigger reach is much more related to the relationship of trigger face to backstrap of the gun than it is to width of side panels. That being said, the thin grips do change that at least a bit.

Got it. Expect minimal changes.

[Talionis]

My question was totally unclear, sorry! (Though I very much appreciate the recommendations on round count!) What I was wondering was--given that my low(ish) count of <5000/year was unlikely to increase, i.e., one 2000-round class, plus maintenance training--might I be well served by the PCR and not need to go to a gun in the "shoot and ignore" category (not that that's really a thing!)? Assuming good record keeping and annual maintenance, of course.

Haha, I managed to answer the wrong question with both of my answers, that takes a special talent Only you can answer if you'll be well served with the PCR as your only training/self-defense pistol.

Some of the questions I would ask myself before adopting the PCR would be something along these lines:

1)(a) Am I mechanically inclined and able to comfortably work on fairly complex mechanical systems?
OR
(b) Am I prepared to invest in at least one duplicate of the gun that will be used as my training/backup gun?

2) Am I prepared to detail strip, check component wear, and replace all springs and any wear items on an at least yearly basis, or do without that gun for a period of time while someone else does it?

3) Am I prepared to troubleshoot issues such as changing extractor tension or rounding off ejector angle that may crop up at inopportune times?

4) Am I able to easily operate all controls, paying particular attention to trigger manipulation?

5) Does this particular gun speak to me on a deeper level than the less maintenance intensive options I'm considering?

[Edwin]

Don't forget that with the 92, you can get a short reset trigger and ultra-thin grips.