Again, we are not talking about any particular pistol, barrel, or other hardware; only about ammo testing using SAAMI test barrels and fixtures.
Again, we are not talking about any particular pistol, barrel, or other hardware; only about ammo testing using SAAMI test barrels and fixtures.
Facts matter...Feelings Can Lie
I'm not totally sure what he's saying, but it sounds like he has found that using actual pistol barrels in a fixture, shows 9mm to be more accurate. At what distance? What type of barrels - i.. 1911, Beretta, etc.
Using test barrels, not actual barrels (test barrels probably have a better name, but I don't know it) is how the tests I'm aware of were conducted. Other tests may well show other things. Test barrels are like 10 pounds or something, and look like extreme bull barrel rifle barrels. They are single shot only, and not capable of fitting on any gun known to man.
Either way, my info on this is definitely a bit dated, like 10 years or so, but if Doc agrees with it, I'm pretty confident in it.
It's not a question of believing you or picking up Tom's name from where you dropped it, rotation and stabilization are a thing and usually the biggest thing to affect accuracy. The 180 grain .40 caliber loadings as offered by the ammo companies are less stable than the 165's, because they aren't spinning fast enough and don't stabilize. I have no doubt all the other things you mentioned are true, I just don't feel as if they are as relevant.
Men freely believe that which they desire.
Julius Caesar
The gunsmiths were talking about custom 1911s built for extreme precisión, and the barrels they are talking about are top notch custom 1911 barrels. They test these barrels (before fitting to the gun) in very solid fixtures to select them for accuracy. They are two of the best bullseye/pure accuracy gunsmiths in USA.
These are not the massive test barrels that are often used in ammo factories (that look like a thick bull barrel fitted to a floating bolt action, and very rigidly anchored to the test device). Theoretically, the rigidity of these test barrels (if they are kept in optimun condition, they start as match grade barrels) makes them the ideal, nonbiased, test device to compare loads, bullets, and the inherent accuracy of a cartridge, independently of the gun.
There is the "hand-waving" of 9x19 accuracy--yes, if you spend at least $1000 getting your gun customized, most likely with a 30:1 twist rate and you carefully work up the loads, you "might" be as accurate as a .45 Auto. If your 9x19 is as accurate as a .45 at 25 yards, it might be more accurate at 50 yards (faster rounds drop less--reason folks don't shoot .45-70s at 800+ yards compared to .300 Win Mag).
Load development? .45 Auto loads used today in Bullseye were generally developed in the '40s and '50s. The top shooters don't sort cases or any thing else.
Why? I have no idea. I would say that NO cartridge is inherently accurate, but:
I know that of my twelve guns in 9x19, NONE of them will consistently give me groups under 4" at 25 yards (I get some groups under 1", but not consistently). Of fifteen guns in .45 Auto, NONE of them will give me groups OVER 4" at 25 yards with decent ammo if I do my part. My three .40s are close to my .45s.
It should be a matter of barrel and build quality.
I also don't care what gunsmiths say, I want to see Bullseye competition scores showing 9x19 is out-shooting .45.
I've got a couple 9mm service pistols that will do less than 1" at 20 yards off the bench with Winchester white box 115 grain fmj and handloads. Lots more that easily shoot under 2" with a wide variety of ammo. If one of my 9mm's was only shooting 4" groups, it wouldn't be mine for long. My .45's shoot pretty good too, but the smallest groups I've shot have been out of my 9mm's.
The first indication a bad guy should have that I'm dangerous is when his
disembodied soul is looking down at his own corpse wondering what happened.
The last discussion I had about this with David Sams suggested that the 9x19 absolute accuracy was better than .45 ACP, now that there is a focus on match accurate 9x19 guns and loads. The way that groups are counted for score in Bullseye gives the edge to .45 as an impact in the same point can cut a higher scoring ring with the .45, but not with the 9x19.