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Thread: Why I won’t be doing the 2000 round challenge

  1. #1
    Site Supporter OlongJohnson's Avatar
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    Why I won’t be doing the 2000 round challenge

    I read various forums, and sometimes questions arise about, for example, “Is this wear normal, I’ve only shot 1000 rounds?” As I shop for the best deals on various firearms, that is always of concern. Even many pistols that appear to have been shot very little have been lubricated even less, with the factory-included lube tube unopened in the box, and disproportionate wear already showing on the rails.

    The point being, it’s possible to put a severe amount of wear on a pistol in a relatively short time if it’s not kept properly cleaned and lubed in critical locations. Some pistols are more susceptible than others.

    Glocks may not care much, but I’ve still seen chrome flake off the steel “rail” tabs in a very short time.

    Sigs want grease, and plenty of it. They’ll go 100k rounds and beyond if properly cleaned and lubed and parts changed on schedule, but they can be killed with a much smaller round count if neglected. I’d definitely have different hot weather and cold weather solutions for a Sig used as a carry piece, and I’d probably have different solutions for one used as a carry piece, that absolutely had to work for a handful of shots if needed, and one used for a high volume practice or competition gun that I wanted to last tens of thousands of rounds.

    In my opinion, based on what I hope is still only half a lifetime or so operating, maintaining and repairing mechanical stuff, the ability of a machine to withstand neglect and abuse is not the best measure of performance or reliability. The Lexus that was built to last 1000 years sits in the junk yard for the same reason as the ratted-out crap can next to it: improper maintenance.

    You wouldn’t measure the quality of a car by its ability to be driven 20,000 miles without touching the dip stick and not have the engine seize. Some cars may burn a quart of oil every 3000 miles or so. There’s no problem with that, but if you try to go 20k without topping it up and changing it a few times, you will destroy it completely when, with proper maintenance, that car might go 250k miles. Another car might just make it to the 20k line without apparent problems, but being two quarts low for the last 5000 miles of that could cause increased wear that will cause it to begin failing emissions tests 50-100k miles earlier at end of life than if it had been properly maintained from the start.

    I'm much more in tune with the guy whose daily driver has 80k miles, with 15k of those on race tracks, and is running as strong as it did after its first oil change and rocking its emissions tests because the best oil is used and changed when it should be, and all the other maintenance is kept up with.

    Similarly, while the ability of a pistol to go 2000 rounds without cleaning or lubrication and not choke may provide some indication of its reliability or durability when properly maintained, I’d personally rather know that I’m taking care of it in a way that will maximize its reliability and service life over the lifetime of use I (or the future owners, of whose pistol I am a custodian) will get from it.

    In particular, as I’ve searched for some older, out of production models where it hasn’t been possible to just go buy a new one for many years, I appreciate them being in better condition, with less wear and more useful life ahead of them. All firearms eventually become a non-renewable resource.

    Some say that more guns are damaged by over cleaning than under cleaning, but I can’t see how wiping a patch down the barrel and cleaning the old lube and grease off the rails and replacing it with new, clean lube can possibly be bad. I am not in the sand box, so attracting the alkali dust (which I know well) is not a worry on the nightstand, the range, at a competition, or under a shirt.

    A professional shooter/trainer who may acquire his tools at steeply discounted prices, and may plan to wear them out in a year or less and then move on to the next one, may find comfort in knowing his consumable implement is robust to unreasonable abuse. But looking at them as more of a capital investment, my goal is to obtain the longest possible service from them, or best resale value should it come to that. Because of that, I’ll be keeping my equipment cleaned and lubed much more frequently.

    I hope this doesn’t come across as an attitude of pissing on the campfire, but as a new guy around here, I have felt a bit of a cultural mentality that the 2000 round challenge is a normal/standard/necessary rite of passage for a firearm to be regarded as truly trustworthy. I do appreciate seeing the reports where pistols I like do very well, but I don’t really buy into the idea that I should do it with every pistol I own, just to be sure it’s up to snuff. I’m kinda wondering how many people feel more like me when it comes to how they treat their own stuff.

  2. #2
    Site Supporter Jay Cunningham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OlongJohnson View Post
    In my opinion, based on what I hope is still only half a lifetime or so operating, maintaining and repairing mechanical stuff, the ability of a machine to withstand neglect and abuse is not the best measure of performance or reliability.
    I think some of this torture-test stuff has improperly skewed the brains of "normal" "civilian" shooters and their expectations/demands of their gear.

  3. #3
    Modding this sack of shit BehindBlueI's's Avatar
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    While I'm firmly in the camp of not doing it because I don't care if a gun will run 2k rounds without cleaning, I wouldn't harangue anyone who did. Yeah, one of these guns may be the Chevelle SS one day, but most of them are going to be the Dodge Omni. If it's worn out and trashed, it was disposable to begin with.

    I blame Glock, though. I imagine the first marketing campaign to a skeptical US market started like this: "Yes, our triggers are butt, and yes we aren't as accurate as the other offerings, and yes we're made of plastic, and yes we're foreigners, and yes we put a safety on the trigger because reasons, and yes we've got no culture cache at the moment...but you can bury our pistols in the mud for thirteen weeks, freeze them in a block of ice, and toss them out of a helicopter and they'll still shoot!"

  4. #4
    Site Supporter rob_s's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Katar View Post
    I think some of this torture-test stuff has improperly skewed the brains of "normal" "civilian" shooters and their expectations/demands of their gear.
    I agree.

    However, I also think that something like the 2k challenge can be fun, a learning experience, and perhaps a motivator to get out to the range, none of which are bad things.

    the one good thing that has come from all of this, in a more global sense, is that more people have become disavowed of the nonsense that guns are to be detail stripped and polished every time one returns home from the range.

  5. #5
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    I've never done the 2000 round challenge for the reasons the OP stated.

    I'm not sure when a pistols ability to run dry became a thing. Keeping one lubed isn't hard. Tell me again why I should I insist on it working properly while dry?

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    I didn't feel like I was abusing the 1911 I put through the 2K challenge. In fact after the test was completed when I cleaned and lubed the gun it looked great.

    I also didn't think my test was definitive proof of anything other than that particular pistol ran fine with less than ideal cleaning and lubrication. No big deal. My main carry gun was never put through the 2K challenge and I don't have plans to do so.

  7. #7
    Site Supporter Jay Cunningham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    the one good thing that has come from all of this, in a more global sense, is that more people have become disavowed of the nonsense that guns are to be detail stripped and polished every time one returns home from the range.
    Absolutely 100%. For me, it makes a good point of discussion for less experienced shooters. But it's a quick point.

  8. #8
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    I care much more about how the gun will do with the three mags I'm carrying, than what happens from 1000 onward.

    However, 2000 rounds isn't really that much, and you should be starting with a properly lubed gun. So, IMHO, it's not a "torture test" in any sense of the word, nor is it particularly abusive to a quality service pistol.

    If you somehow lost the lube or dropped the gun in a sandblast cabinet by mistake, no one is twisting your arm saying you have to shoot the entire test. For that matter, I don't recall anyone pushing the idea that this needs to be done on every gun you own. Rather, the argument was that a quality service piece should be able to meet that standard. Also, IIRC, Todd chose the 2000 round figure based on common agency procurement requirements. Since lots of people here prefer shooting guns to cleaning them, it didn't take long to get a reasonable data sample that makes for good discussion, and helps overcome the notion that service pistols are delicate flowers that need hours of loving maintenance.

  9. #9
    Site Supporter Hambo's Avatar
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    People really clean their guns with only a few hundred rounds down the pipe? I do that when I shoot my carry gun, but I treat my range gun like a lawnmower: just add oil and bullets.
    "Gunfighting is a thinking man's game. So we might want to bring thinking back into it."-MDFA

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  10. #10
    Member JHC's Avatar
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    IIRC TLG started it, not Glock. I have suspected he was inspired by large agency testing protocols. But that's a guess. He was involved with some but stuck tight to his NDAs like a boss.

    I did it on a couple Glocks and an M&P when it was the rage. I had fun with it.
    “Remember, being healthy is basically just dying as slowly as possible,” Ricky Gervais

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