Officer gives active shooter ample warning as the shooter reloads

[LittleLebowski]

Wow, glad this ended up OK. Lots and lots of "DROP THE GUN" as the shooter reloads and cocks the weapon. The shooter had just killed his son.

http://www.twinsburgbulletin.com/bre...rwin-drive-man

The deadly domestic situation-turned-police shooting that occurred Sept. 1 at 2425 Sherwin Drive resulted in the death of Charles Robert Shaw, 76; and his son, Scott Robert Shaw, 55.

Police say Charles Shaw shot his son twice at their shared Sherwin Drive home before the father was fatally shot by Twinsburg police. Only one Twinsburg officer discharged his weapon, according to the May 3 ruling.

Video (not graphic)
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=4bd_1464049776

[BaiHu]

Wow, glad this ended up OK. Lots and lots of "DROP THE GUN" as the shooter reloads and cocks the weapon. The shooter had just killed his son.

http://www.twinsburgbulletin.com/bre...rwin-drive-man



Video (not graphic)
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=4bd_1464049776

Bad news bears. It seemed obvious that he was reluctant to shoot the older man, but HEYZEUSS! man, how many times does a person need to hear drop the gun or see guns pointed at them before they drop it? Glad the officer was not flambeed...

[41magfan]

I used to occasionally send out topic based questionnaires to all my troops in an effort to try and determine what might be lacking in the arena of mindset and tactics. On one occasion, the survey question related to a hypothetical scenario where the officer should have engaged the BG with DF without a warning or challenge of any kind.

Less than 20% responded to the question correctly (that included Command Staff), and their narrative responses clearly illustrated that they were under the impression that a warning and/or challenge was either a moral or legal obligation. When you couple that with the reality that some officers are just reluctant to use DF under ANY circumstance, you have a disaster waiting to happen. It took a force-on-force illustration to make the point that talking when you should be shooting creates unnecessary perils.

That was 34 years ago. I can only imagine the pitfalls of indecision that have been created by the unwarranted scrutiny many LEO’s are under these days.

[DocGKR]

We did a similar FoF scenario many years ago--officers enter a room where a suspect is actively stabbing a child. The more the officers screamed drop the knife, the more times the child got filleted. Out of over 1600 officers running the scenario, less than a dozen immediately, decisively, and correctly stopped the assault...

[Hauptmann]

Bad news bears. It seemed obvious that he was reluctant to shoot the older man, but HEYZEUSS! man, how many times does a person need to hear drop the gun or see guns pointed at them before they drop it? Glad the officer was not flambeed...

Speculation, but a lot could have contributed to this situation that would have caused the officer to delay using lethal force when it was perfectly justified. You can see in the video that the shooting officer was right next to the dead son on the ground, and he could see that the old man was reloading and taking a position of cover as he continued to pop his head out from behind cover to see what the officer was doing. No doubt, the old guy had demonstrated that he was willing to kill, and he was preparing to kill the officers.

Yet, this officer was hesitant to use the force necessary to prevent the old guy from killing him. Would the officer have responded differently if this was 10 years ago?........when the media wasn't in a feeding frenzy to crucify officers, his own agency likely making examples of other officers, and he didn't have a camera attached to his d**k? Not sure, but this reminds me of the Kyle Dinkheller shooting in terms of hesitancy as the bad guy prepares his weapon for action right in front of the officer.

[BaiHu]

Speculation, but a lot could have contributed to this situation that would have caused the officer to delay using lethal force when it was perfectly justified. You can see in the video that the shooting officer was right next to the dead son on the ground, and he could see that the old man was reloading and taking a position of cover as he continued to pop his head out from behind cover to see what the officer was doing. No doubt, the old guy had demonstrated that he was willing to kill, and he was preparing to kill the officers.

Yet, this officer was hesitant to use the force necessary to prevent the old guy from killing him. Would the officer have responded differently if this was 10 years ago?........when the media wasn't in a feeding frenzy to crucify officers, his own agency likely making examples of other officers, and he didn't have a camera attached to his d**k? Not sure, but this reminds me of the Kyle Dinkheller shooting in terms of hesitancy as the bad guy prepares his weapon for action right in front of the officer.

I agree with your sentiment, but was feeling the Dinkheller vibe. Will the future have a piece of case law (is there one?) that will prescribe a min/max number of "drop the gun" statements before you can shoot? I hope not. Good catch on the visual. I had a hard time making sense of some of the video on the left side of the screen.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[Hauptmann]

I agree with your sentiment, but was feeling the Dinkheller vibe. Will the future have a piece of case law (is there one?) that will prescribe a min/max number of "drop the gun" statements before you can shoot? I hope not. Good catch on the visual. I had a hard time making sense of some of the video on the left side of the screen.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

I really hope not, as the environment is so witch-hunty as it is. I think you would be hard pressed to find an officer now days that isn't at least equally afraid(maybe more so) of the liability associated with using deadly force, as they are of the risk of being killed in the line of duty. That is a world turned on its head.

[AMC]

I watched that video yesterday. Kept thinking, "Jeez, man....shut up and shoot him!" Of, course, it's also true that you only have one very screwed up perspective on this (why I hate chest mounted cameras in shooting incidents). I think we have always had a percentage of officers who just aren't gonna shoot, even to save their own lives. Most believe it "won't happen to them". Whether that percentage has increased, I don't know, but I have NO DOUBT that the current political and media climate is making cops hesitate and make risky choices. We've had guys do things that place their lives at risk that they should be chewed out for and retrained, but instead they are praised by command for "restraint" (hesitation). It is indeed a world upside down, and unless the public demands it change, the politicians are gonna keep making it worse.

[HCM]

Speculation, but a lot could have contributed to this situation that would have caused the officer to delay using lethal force when it was perfectly justified. You can see in the video that the shooting officer was right next to the dead son on the ground, and he could see that the old man was reloading and taking a position of cover as he continued to pop his head out from behind cover to see what the officer was doing. No doubt, the old guy had demonstrated that he was willing to kill, and he was preparing to kill the officers.

Yet, this officer was hesitant to use the force necessary to prevent the old guy from killing him. Would the officer have responded differently if this was 10 years ago?........when the media wasn't in a feeding frenzy to crucify officers, his own agency likely making examples of other officers, and he didn't have a camera attached to his d**k? Not sure, but this reminds me of the Kyle Dinkheller shooting in terms of hesitancy as the bad guy prepares his weapon for action right in front of the officer.

Hesitation, including the hesitation to shoot elderly suspects is not new. This reminds me of the shooting of TX DPS Trooper Randy Vetter and the hesitation of responding back up officers as well.



http://www.wikigrain.org/?req=Randall+Vetter

[psalms144.1]

Hesitation, including the hesitation to shoot elderly suspects is not new. This reminds me of the shooting of TX DPS Trooper Randy Vetter and the hesitation of responding back up officers as well.

I had EXACTLY the same thought and recollection. Trooper Vetter's funeral was the first I attended wearing a badge, and I won't forget it...