Muzzle Sweep double standard?

[joshs]

But Why? The gun can not fire.
It condition is inoperable similar to a blue gun.

What about a pistol with a chamber flag?

What if you took the slide off the pistol can you point the frame at people? or does
"never" apply here as well (I interpret a disassembled gun as "gun parts" and not
subject to the safety rules) but is this really different than the above?

I know that Tom Givens has often said "if you want to do anything else
(other than shoot the gun) you must clear it first". I do not want to put
words into his mouth but I interprets this as "all guns are always loaded . . . until
you clear it" because clearly he is treating a recently cleared gun a bit differently
than one he just picked up.

I am would be interested to get his take on this question as the gun is "obviously clear"
and yet this does appear to be a violation.

These safety rules drive me crazy. People get wrapped up on the exact wording that
Cooper used but there seems to be a whole bunch of edge cases that are not clear if
the particular wording was intended to cover. The implications of these rules is far
from obvious and yet everyone seems to believe that if you "follow the rules"
(which has to be your understanding of the rules) you will be "safe".

Actually my understanding of the first rule from reading some Coopers Commentary
on Isreali carry, is that he intended it to include "you should keep your pistols always
loaded (and on your person, Because they are useless otherwise)". So I would actually
argue that the rule should imply not hanging around with the slide locked open as
this is not a useful position for the gun to be in. . . . except if you are going to do
some administrative action (run a bore snake through the barrel) then it becomes
a question of how to tug that tight snake through the barrel and keep it down range
the whole time (as SLG suggests).

What about slide lock reloads? Most of the people I see doing these
keep their muzzle over the berm. This is not a safe direction. Not only
could people over the berm be killed if there was an ND but the range
would most certainly be shut down. I never got a good explanation
for this exception to the safety rules, though I grilled TLG about it
for about 15 minutes the first time we met.

Exercising control over muzzle direction is simply forming good habits. I believe that's why everyone else who responded in this thread mentioned practicing good muzzle control even when using firearm simulators. This continues the build the good habit of never pointing anything that feels like a firearm at a person unless you make the conscious choice to do so.

Muzzle control also acts as a signaling device to others. When I see someone using good muzzle control with an unloaded real gun, blue gun, or sim gun, I personally feel much better about being in the vicinity of that person while they are handling a firearm.

As for reloads with the muzzle over the berm, this has nothing to do with the gun being at slide-lock. "Up" is generally considered a safe direction unless you have reason to believe that it isn't. If you go to a USPSA match, you will see nearly every shooter with their muzzles over the berm while doing in-battery reloads.

Muzzle up wouldn't be a ready position if it was considered unsafe to generally use "up" as a safe direction. Personally, I've seen more rounds leave ranges from skipping off the range floor than being directly fired over a berm, which would also preclude low ready if the primary concern was the possibility of a projectile leaving the range due to an unintentional discharge.

[BillSWPA]

But Why? The gun can not fire.
It condition is inoperable similar to a blue gun.

What about a pistol with a chamber flag?

What if you took the slide off the pistol can you point the frame at people? or does
"never" apply here as well (I interpret a disassembled gun as "gun parts" and not
subject to the safety rules) but is this really different than the above?

I know that Tom Givens has often said "if you want to do anything else
(other than shoot the gun) you must clear it first". I do not want to put
words into his mouth but I interprets this as "all guns are always loaded . . . until
you clear it" because clearly he is treating a recently cleared gun a bit differently
than one he just picked up.

I am would be interested to get his take on this question as the gun is "obviously clear"
and yet this does appear to be a violation.

These safety rules drive me crazy. People get wrapped up on the exact wording that
Cooper used but there seems to be a whole bunch of edge cases that are not clear if
the particular wording was intended to cover. The implications of these rules is far
from obvious and yet everyone seems to believe that if you "follow the rules"
(which has to be your understanding of the rules) you will be "safe".

Actually my understanding of the first rule from reading some Coopers Commentary
on Isreali carry, is that he intended it to include "you should keep your pistols always
loaded (and on your person, Because they are useless otherwise)". So I would actually
argue that the rule should imply not hanging around with the slide locked open as
this is not a useful position for the gun to be in. . . . except if you are going to do
some administrative action (run a bore snake through the barrel) then it becomes
a question of how to tug that tight snake through the barrel and keep it down range
the whole time (as SLG suggests).

What about slide lock reloads? Most of the people I see doing these
keep their muzzle over the berm. This is not a safe direction. Not only
could people over the berm be killed if there was an ND but the range
would most certainly be shut down. I never got a good explanation
for this exception to the safety rules, though I grilled TLG about it
for about 15 minutes the first time we met.

The rules are set up so that violating one will not result in injury or death, just possible embarrassment. Violate more than one, and now injury or death is being risked.

I have seen multiple instances of someone believing a gun was safe when in fact it was not. I have also read about people being shot by guns that the handler thought were unloaded.

Never allowing the muzzle to cover anyone, even when the slide is back, reinforces good gun handling habits and keeps everyone safe.

The two most common causes of accidents are ignorance and complacency. Avoid both at all times.

[GJM]

How about shooting blanks at an Apache helicopter, in a military exercise, and getting live rounds mixed in:


http://www.theolympian.com/news/nati...e78515897.html


Sent from my iPad

[BillSWPA]

Are you talking to me?

I have not had any instructor say my gun handling is poor.
However after 5 years of study I still do not know what the 4 rules mean.
Please explain them to me. I wrote enough that my position should be
clear, though I am not sure where you stand.

If a solid understanding of those rules was not the first thing conveyed by your instructors, then I respectfully suggest that you did not have the right instructors.

[rob_s]

There is a lot of butt-hurt and gun-hipstering of Cooper's Rules. I frankly don't get it. Mostly it comes from guys that either (a) never understood the rules to begin with (b) think they can say the same thing, better, with different words, or (c) are simply looking to make a name for themselves. Most often it appears to be all three.

Don't fucking point guns at people unless they are trying to harm or kill you or someone else.

How's that for re-writing the rules?

I've been around a lot of people that think there are grey areas, edges, exceptions, etc. I don't agree with those people, and prefer not to be around them at all, let alone when they are in possession of a firearm.

How you treat sims guns, airsoft guns, and blue guns is ultimately a good indicator of how you will treat the real thing. YMMV etc.

[MDS]

I have not had any instructor say my gun handling is poor.
However after 5 years of study I still do not know what the 4 rules mean.
Please explain them to me. I wrote enough that my position should be
clear, though I am not sure where you stand.

Not Wheeler, but the explanation is pretty simple. Notice the first, best answer to the OP (red font mine) :

If it's real steel I strive to never laser any part of anyone, whether loaded, empty, slide locked back, etc. Blue guns I try not to laser unless necessary for the demonstration.

Think of the 4 rules kind of like the 10 Commandments. No one can possibly live up to them perfectly 100% of the time. But the clear tendency is that better the shooter - the more thoughtfully and practically experienced with violent gun use - the more likely she is to follow the rules more closely, more of the time. When you violate them, you should feel like a dirty sinner, washed clean only by the combination of grace and repentance and an honest attempt to follow the rules from now on. There's honest debate about whether to muzzle no-shoots on game stages, for crying out loud! By participating in a debate like that, by honestly thinking about the corner cases you mention, you can continue to evolve into an ever-better shooter - more dangerous to anyone attacking you and less dangerous to yourself as well as your friends, family, teammates, fellow range-goers, and innocent bystanders.

In other words, IMO, getting "wrapped up in the exact wording" isn't supposed to yield simple easy answers to all the corner cases you might come across. But thinking through how to do your manipulations in a way that is most compatible with the 4 rules is a good exercise to develop and strengthen good handling habits and safety intuitions. One often finds that when the 4 rules seem unclear or complex, that it's really just something about ourselves that makes them that way - our laziness or our sense that they can be goofy or prudish at times.

Safe gun handling ain't rocket surgery. It just takes a commitment to safe handling, even when it feels "goofy." Following the Four Rules - and, when they seem complicated, meditating on them until they're simple again - is a great, time-tested way of honoring that commitment.

[BJXDS]

I don't agree with "Different Handling Rules"

Not to complicate the original post, but a properly flagged/disabled training gun may be different.

[jiminycricket]

I assume we're talking about a slide-locked pistol with the magazine removed and after being doubled/tripled checked to be clear?

Muzzle others? Heck no. That's what blue guns are for if a particular demonstration demands such flagging.
Muzzle myself? I'd be lying if I said I never muzzled my hand while using a bore-snake. What then of revolvers too when cleaning?

[rwa]

But Why? The gun can not fire.

Until you drop the slide... As the range master for our local range, if you were to handle a firearm with the slide locked back while other shooters were downrange, you would be "selective tresspassed" by local law enforcement and not be welcome back.

[Sterling Archer]

As already stated it's about developing habits. Good habits with an unloaded gun build and reinforce good habits with a loaded gun.

If, for example, I'm talking to a person who inadvertently muzzle sweeps my hand with a slide locked gun I'll let it slide. If any body areas are swept I'll make a small comment or hand gesture to point out my discomfort, which is usually all that's needed. However, if at any point a muzzle winds up in my face (slide lock, empty chamber indicator, I don't care) someone is most likely getting a broken finger/nose from me taking the pistol away.