Active shoulders

[CCT125US]

In regards to the following quote from Jeff Gonzales of Trident Concepts:

"Keep your shoulders active, pull back on the shoulder blades. Don't let them round and roll forward"

From this link:

http://www.tridentconcepts.com/caught-flat-footed/

I am curious to hear more about this from folks who have trained with Mr. Gonzales. My interpretation may be different than what is intended. I have been exploring this, and the Leatham calf tension concept as mentioned by SLG, in over the past several sessions.

[PNWTO]

The way that I learned to "pack" the shoulders was from the Russian Kettlebell Challenge:

Hold arms straight up.

Reach each hand to the back of the neck, bending at the elbow.

Feel those scapula retract.

[45dotACP]

If I'm understanding what I'm reading, almost nobody recommends that technique...

[GJM]

If you shoot with active shoulders, does that make you an active shooter?

[Wondering Beard]

Maybe you're just shouldering the burden of being an active shooter?

[Cheap Shot]

In regards to the following quote from Jeff Gonzales of Trident Concepts:

"Keep your shoulders active, pull back on the shoulder blades. Don't let them round and roll forward"

From this link:

http://www.tridentconcepts.com/caught-flat-footed/

I am curious to hear more about this from folks who have trained with Mr. Gonzales. My interpretation may be different than what is intended. I have been exploring this, and the Leatham calf tension concept as mentioned by SLG, in over the past several sessions.

FWIW my .02

1. Timmie turtle stance with head tucked low between shoulders. Shoulders hunched up and rolled forward.
2. Ben Stoeger - Grip the Sh#t out of the gun with your hands, keep everything else loose. Head erect, bring gun up to line of sight. This IMO would the best technique for fast movement with shooting. I just can't to it to my satisfaction yet.
3. Jeff Gonzales- pull back (and down) on the shoulder blades. Grip the Sh#t out of the gun, including ring and pinky finger. In addition to hands, consciously use muscles in back, shoulders, chest, arms to control recoil and stabilize gun.

I personally can't just use my hands to grip and keep everything else loose. But, I can't run and gun through USPSA COF's keeping my entire upper body locked up. However, on a square range if I'm not moving fast Jeffs recommendations for me pay big dividends in greater accuracy and less fatigue.

The tactical turtle seems to be somewhat intuitive for most people, including me when I first started out, but its the least desirable of all (again for me, based on performance)

So right now I'm doing 3 on stand and shoot stages, and trying to do 2 when I feel froggy. YMMV

[JCS]

To properly engage the shoulder girdle you must roll the shoulders forward. I'm not an instructor but I know much more about anatomy. My personal stance is that I want to engage as many muscles as possible to absorb recoil. To do so I roll the shoulders forward. I want the gun to push away from my body not pull towards so why would I pull my shoulders back?

If I were to do a plank or push up would you pull your shoulders back? No way. You would press and extend through your shoulders.

I'm probably looking at this completely wrong.


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[VegasHK]

While I don't know much about this technique, at face value it seems very counter intuitive. I have been taught, and teach to roll the shoulders forward. This helps to engage the larger and stronger back and shoulder muscles. Instead of using just arms and hand grip, one is able to activate and use some of the upper bodies strongest muscles. Rolling the shoulders up under the ears (bit of an exaggeration) allows the recoil to run trough the arms (shock absorbers) and into the big muscles. The stability gained and the endurance this adds to shooting is pretty hard to argue. As an exams of how strong those muscles are, Tazer International teaches to target the large back muscles with the Tazer to achieve better lock up, and ensure neuro muscular incapacitation. If the same muscles that will lock you up when hit with a Tazer aren't the same muscles you want to tighten up when shooting, maybe I'm missing something.

[CCT125US]

I appreciate the responses so far. I agree with VegasHK that at face value it does seem counter intuitive. I have found that in my shooting, a more relaxed stance is better (defined as faster / more accurate). And I think part of the issue is how folks interpret meanings differently. Say someone tends to have a slouchy / hunched stance, perhaps they could benefit from standing proud and rolling the shoulders back. Perhaps another looks to be standing upright like Stoeger but has a weak grip and is not engaging the right muscles. It takes a certain level of strength to drive a handgun at a certain level, perhaps where that strength comes from can vary? To me the quote "Keep your shoulders active, pull back on the shoulder blades. Don't let them round and roll forward" is pretty straight forward. However, he does not mention tension, just position. When I worked on this technique a bit yesterday, it yielded good results. However, I was also working on the Leatham calf tension technique as mentioned in post #474 of this thread https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....ensator/page48 so I was not working something new in isolation which I know is not ideal. I do know that the two techniques, on that day, made me take pause and re evaluate my opinion. My standard drills were easier, I had time remaining and accuracy was excellent. The next time I get to my range, I plan to evaluate while shooting and moving. I will give the Panone Mad Half minute https://youtu.be/fgK67aKfj_E several runs and compare prior times.

For reference some of my standard drills are; Indoor: iHack, 25yd slow fire B8, FYL, pairs to 2"C at 5 and 7yds, failure drill. Outdoor: Defoor PT#1, mad half minute.


Still looking for thoughts from prior students who heard it first hand

[Saur]

You can watch his shoulders after his drawstroke and reload here to get a visual.

I remember he had an article on msw, "In regards to recoil management and assuming a powerful grip, the upper torso and in specific your lats, traps, delts along with your shoulder girdle need to be retracted as if you are pulling a rope with both hands at the same time. I try to have the student imagine they are squeezing their shoulder blades together in an effort to pinch and hold a Nerf football."