Revolver realities - Living with the revolver as a duty sidearm

[TCinVA]

So, revolvers. I have a thing for revolvers. I own way more revolvers than I should, and when bored I find myself on Gunbroker bidding for pretty revolvers and sometimes winning them. On skynet there is an entire group dedicated to wheel guns and on more than one occasion I've been lured into a purchase.

The most recent being my new/old pre-model 10 M&P revolver:

Attachment 7356

It's a truly lovely thing. Accurate, pleasant to shoot, and with fit-and-finish you just don't see anymore.

I've fired exactly 50 rounds of ammunition through it...and in that time I noticed that the cylinder became more difficult to open. I examined the gun and sure enough, the pin for the ejector was unscrewing a little with every shot. Had I not checked this when it manifested it could very well have resulted in a situation where I would need to forcefully smack the cylinder to get the thing open.

This got me to thinking about something I've said before when someone extols to me the virtue of revolvers: Living with the revolver as a primary sidearm every day is not the trouble-free experience many believe it to be. Those who say revolvers never have problems are typically those who have spent little time actually carrying and shooting revolvers. The old school guys who lived with revolvers as their primary weapons developed a lot of techniques, tips, and tricks to get the most out of their wheel guns. Many of those are in danger of being lost to time. I'd love to spend a couple of hours talking to Jim Cirillo about life with a wheel gun, but Jim isn't with us any more.

So I thought that perhaps what we should do is dedicate a thread to documenting and discussing just those nuggets of revolver knowledge as a reference. Bits and pieces have been shared in other threads, but what I'm hoping to create here is a single repository for the kinds of revolver-specific knowledge that is easily identified and accessible for general edification.

[LSP972]

Living with the revolver as a primary sidearm every day is not the trouble-free experience many believe it to be. Those who say revolvers never have problems are typically those who have spent little time actually carrying and shooting revolvers.

Indeed. The I-expert refrain... "Revolvers never jam!"... is always good for a chuckle.

Without doubt, the most frequent issues I have seen are:

1. The ejector rod assembly backing out, as you described

2. Unburned powder granules under the extractor star

3. Thumb piece screw backing out/lost... the thumb piece followed shortly thereafter

4. Yoke screw loose/buggered

When working a line (of cops/alphabet po-lice for training/quals), I ALWAYS had two things in my pocket; a fitted screwdriver, and a toothbrush. Those enabled me to "fix" 90% of the problems during a course of fire, right there and quickly. The other myriad of issues required taking the gun back to the work bench.

Of course, there's tons more to discuss, but my lunch crew is giving me the stink eye, so gotta run. This thread should prove to be interesting.

.

[Malamute]

Ive had the extractor rod come loose a couple times. Torqueing them fixes it of course, but unless you preemptively torque them, is a fix after the fact. One habit I got in to when handling/cleaning/tinkering with revolvers was to spin the cylinder by the extractor rod, then stop it by the rod. Both ways a couple times. Ive had a couple suddenly come loose when doing this.

Like LSP972 said, toothbrush and small screwdriver usually take care of the functioning quirks. Using them preemptively, as with torqueing extractor rods goes a long ways to keeping Smiths going.

[jh9]

The thread title says "duty" but this is in the revolver subforum instead of the LE subforum. If a cake-eater's input is inappropriate delete as necessary. Assuming carry/competition (3-4 matches per month when I was shooting "a lot") exclusively with a revolver for months or years at a time counts:



For assembly:

There's a tool for making sure the extractor rod is torqued down. New guns are usually fine. Used guns if it's ever been loosened it will eventually unscrew. Not guaranteed, but it usually will. If the knurled end of the rod is marred then someone took a pair of pliers and did a half ass job. Torque it down properly. I don't think there's a ft/lbs rating. Just by feel. It doesn't take much when using the correct tool.

If I buy a used gun, I just assume it was improperly reassembled last time out. I'll take it down to a barreled frame and at least eyeball the hammer and trigger assemblies. Make sure the torsion spring isn't kinked because some knucklehead put it in wrong, make sure for a MIM hammer the sear spring isn't kinked because they pried it out instead of lifting it over the notch. Make sure the studs aren't bent or showing a crack. Make sure the ball of the cylinder stop is still round. Make sure the strain screw hasn't been dinked with or shortened (potentially sporadic light strikes; might only show up once in a blue moon, but the problem is there).

After that I button it back up and make sure like LSP972 says all the screws are properly fastened. On the new guns you can actually get away with a Brownells 150-3 bit for most everything (sideplate, strain, thumbpiece screws). At least on the 686s and 627 I've been in recently.

Too much endshake will cause the cylinder to bind. I had a 681 do this in the middle of a match once or twice. A .02" endshake bearing fixed it. Note that this was an intermittent failure.

There are people much more experienced than me that disagree, but I never loctite a strain screw. It's torqued all the way down. Never "back it out".

For a single user doing maintenance on a single gun (or a few) It's mostly user error beyond that point. There are armorers here that can go into detail about supporting an entire fleet.



For ammo:

Like LSP972 says, this is a big source of grief. The red and white boxed Master brand reloads we shot back in the `90s would leave powder everywhere, and it wouldn't take long to get under the star or cake the front of the cylinder. This prevents you from closing the cylinder or prevents the cylinder from rotating when closed.

Clean ammo solves a lot of problems.

Especially if you have a tight BC gap brush off the cylinder face if you're using dirty ammo. Once per match / practice session. Otherwise it will eventually bind when the correct combination of cylinder, barrel, heat and carbon presents itself.



For shooting:

Cleaning is a pain, so I only brushed out the chambers and cylinder face before a match. My standard load was 4.7gr New Unique with a 158gr lead bullet, which chrono'd somewhere in the 800s. That was a big enough charge of Unique to not leave flakes of powder everywhere. I would do a proper cleaning every couple months. You can get away with more if you're shooting plated/jacketed and clean powder. Less if you're using dirty ammo. Sometimes a lot less.

I've only ever had it happen once with a S&W, but from memory it's easy to do with a Ruger: getting an empty UNDER the star (failure to extract). Guns that have extractors that have been heavily chamfered are a bigger deal with shooting without moonclips. To get them unstuck, push and hold the rod all the way in and jiggle DO NOT FORCE the empty until it falls out.



Support gear:

Common wisdom is that moonclips can bend. But if the cylinder isn't ALL THE WAY OPEN the clip won't seat even if it's flat. I can make that happen on demand with my 627. Only ever had it happen at a match once, and that was after years of shooting a clip gun.

Safariland Comp 3 speedloaders are disposable. Drop them in the dirt often enough and eventually the activation button will get sticky. They still work, but can get sluggish. Other shooters have managed to never have this happen, but I've thrown away used-to-work Comp 3s that eventually started giving spotty cartridge release.

[Malamute]

For assembly:

There's a tool for making sure the extractor rod is torqued down. New guns are usually fine. Used guns if it's ever been loosened it will eventually unscrew. Not guaranteed, but it usually will. If the knurled end of the rod is marred then someone took a pair of pliers and did a half ass job. Torque it down properly. I don't think there's a ft/lbs rating. Just by feel. It doesn't take much when using the correct tool.

After that I button it back up and make sure like LSP972 says all the screws are properly fastened. On the new guns you can actually get away with a Brownells 150-3 bit for most everything (sideplate, strain, thumbpiece screws). At least on the 686s and 627 I've been in recently.


For a single user doing maintenance on a single gun (or a few) It's mostly user error beyond that point. There are armorers here that can go into detail about supporting an entire fleet.



For ammo:

Clean ammo solves a lot of problems.

For shooting:

Cleaning is a pain, so I only brushed out the chambers and cylinder face before a match. My standard load was 4.7gr New Unique with a 158gr lead bullet, which chrono'd somewhere in the 800s. That was a big enough charge of Unique to not leave flakes of powder everywhere.

Safariland Comp 3 speedloaders are disposable. Drop them in the dirt often enough and eventually the activation button will get sticky. They still work, but can get sluggish. Other shooters have managed to never have this happen, but I've thrown away used-to-work Comp 3s that eventually started giving spotty cartridge release.

Good post.

I torque mine with the cylinder removed, a piece of leather folded over the rod and clamped in a vise, with empties in the chambers. Its probably possible to strip them, the threads are small and shallow, but like you said, it doesn't take much.

A swiss army knife can torque screws in the field if needed.

Unique is considered a dirty powder. Its mostly carbon in my experience, if loaded to levels it burns completely. I don't think its a good very light load powder in handguns. Medium to medium/heavy loads seem to work well.

Ive had one or two Safariland comp 1 44 cal loaders get stuck and not release. I didn't segregate them at the time and am not sure which one(s) now, but they haven't repeated the issue. Have also flat worn out a half dozen HKS loaders from riding motorcycles. The vibration wore the aluminum points holding the rims in, and they effectively locked up when trying to release the shells. They released when turned upside down and the rims weren't touching the points. Something to watch for, though was likely a result of riding motorcycles.

[NEPAKevin]

When I used to shoot with our PPC guys, I overheard a conversation between two more experienced shooters. Bob noticed that Charlie always had a towel in his range bag specifically for wiping down his Python. So Charlie tells him that he does this because he found out that if you wipe off the residue before the gun cools, most of it comes off with out any effort. So next time I'm at the range I bring a towel and try it and it works.

[jh9]

Unique is considered a dirty powder. Its mostly carbon in my experience, if loaded to levels it burns completely. I don't think its a good very light load powder in handguns. Medium to medium/heavy loads seem to work well.

Yeah, it's a Goldilocks powder I think. A friend of mine was using mild(ish) 357 loads and burned out the forcing cone on his 586. Too little and it's a mess. Too much and it really burns too fast/hot to be a good magnum powder. There was a post on benos or m4c where someone who didn't reload shot nothing but the 142gr JTC Fiocchi rounds. A few thousand maybe. Not a lot. That was THE most ragged out forcing cone I've ever seen. Magnum doses of fast powders make me nervous.

The 4.7gr charge though seems to work well. Enough punch to feel like you're not shooting wadcutters, enough that it burns cleanly, bulky enough that a double charge is noticeable if you're paying even the least bit of attention, etc. For bonus points it's technically standard pressure so I don't feel bad about using it in D-frames and the like. And it makes minor with room to spare.

Ive had one or two Safariland comp 1 44 cal loaders get stuck and not release. I didn't segregate them at the time and am not sure which one(s) now, but they haven't repeated the issue. Have also flat worn out a half dozen HKS loaders from riding motorcycles. The vibration wore the aluminum points holding the rims in, and they effectively locked up when trying to release the shells. They released when turned upside down and the rims weren't touching the points. Something to watch for, though was likely a result of riding motorcycles.

Interesting about the HKS. They're generally pretty robust...but yeah, small aluminum contact points in what's basically a vibratory tumbler for hours at a time can't be good for them...

[voodoo_man]

Still have dudes running revolvers on duty. 357 6 inch and 4 inch guns, some even 38spl.

To me its the equivalent of wearing ceremonial battle armor, looks fantastic but useless.

[Tom Givens]

Revolver malfunctions

The old crap about revolvers being more reliable than autos arises from the ammunition that was available when autos first appeared in military and police service, circa 1900. Ammunition of that day had unstable primers that deteriorated quickly when exposed to gun oils, solvent vapors, and just ordinary exposure to weather while carrying the loaded gun and ammo on the belt. The primers of that day contained mercuric salts, which gather moisture from the air and cause corrosion. These "corrosive primers" made cleaning the gun the same day it was fired an absolute necessity. If the gun was not cleaned immediately the mercuric salt deposits in the barrel would gather moisture and cause rust overnight. Unfortunately, these mercuric salts in the primer gather moisture when ammunition is worn on the belt and often failed fire when needed. This is no longer an issue as these mercuric primers have not been used in the US since World War II. Modern primers contain lead styphnate, not mercuric compounds. Modern primers are far less susceptible to oils, solvents, and the weather. However, when auto pistols first became common the mercuric ammunition was all it was available and misfires were common. If a revolver misfires the user simply pulls the trigger again and a fresh round comes up for another try. If a cartridge in a semiautomatic pistol misfires the user must perform an immediate action drill to get the gun back in operation. With modern ammunition a properly maintained semiautomatic pistol is about as reliable as machine can be.

The revolver's basic design makes it far more fragile, and far more susceptible to serious malfunctions that take too long to fix in a fight. If you will think about it, a revolver has five or six individual chambers, each of which has to line up precisely with the pistol barrel upon firing. A misalignment by just a few thousandths of an inch results in bullet shaving off the forcing cone, or the primer misaligned with the firing pin causing misfires. In order to time the action so that each chamber locks in place exactly in alignment with the barrel each time the trigger is pulled the action of the revolver has to be precisely timed and balanced. The inside of a double action revolver somewhat resembles the workings of a wind-up watch. Small delicate parts, small springs, and so forth require perfect fitting and no wear in order to maintain these extremely tight tolerances. Here are some of the basic malfunctions that occur with the double action revolver and what you might be able to do to fix in the field.

Failure to fire – you pull the trigger, nothing. With support hand palm, strike cylinder on left side to be sure it is closed fully. Pull trigger again. If no bang, transition to back up gun. This can because by a high primer jammed against the recoil shield, or a jumped bullet lodged against the forcing cone. In in either of these cases, your only viable option is a backup gun.


Failure to fire – you pull the trigger, get "click". Immediately pull the trigger again. If it clicks twice it is empty, the ammo is dead, or the firing pin is broken. Speed load or transition to a backup gun. If you reload and it goes click, the firing pin is probably broken. If you're still alive transition to your back up gun.

Cylinder won't open – ejector rod may be backed out; high primer may be stuck; bullet may have jumped, ejector rod may be bent. Primer metal may have flowed into the firing pin hole in the frame, locking everything up. This is most common with Magnum ammunition. Transition to your backup gun.

Cylinder won't turn – you pull the trigger but it won't move and cylinder won't turn. Crap under the extractor star has bound up the action. See first entry. Or, ejector rod is bent, or eject rod has come unscrewed. Transition to your backup gun. Titanium guns and lead bullets don't mix – they recoil so sharply that bullets tend to jump forward under recoil and tie up the action. Transition to your backup gun.

Cylinder will not accept new ammo on reload – Dumb ass! You failed to eject the spent cases vigorously with the gun vertical and the spent case(s) got under the extractor rod. Transition to your backup gun. Later, if you survive, hold the extractor open and pry out the case.

Failure to fire – the Taurus or Smith & Wesson goofy internal lock has engaged spontaneously. Transition to your backup gun!

Failure to fire – the strain screw in the front strap of the grip has backed out due to the vibrations of recoil. If this screw backs up a couple of turns the firing pin strike will be too light to ignite cartridges. Periodically check this screw and make sure it is tight. Also, check your firing pin frequently if you have a hammer mounted firing pin as opposed to a frame mounted firing pin. The firing pins mounted on the hammer are subject to breakage.

As you can see, there are a number of mechanical reasons why your revolver may fail, and unfortunately, most of them require time and tools to fix. In a fight you will have neither.

[Dagga Boy]

A lot also has to do with era's. We had proper screw drivers on the range and specialized cleaning equipment for our revolvers. Cops understood more about "maintenance". Our cars did not have fuel injection or computer controlled electronic ignitions and drum brakes. We could drive a manual transmission. We could change our oil and rotate tires. We could maintain our revolvers and understood the maintenance needs. We shot far less rounds with far higher standards for what a hit was. We kept score. We didn't have "firepower". We controlled people via how much force you could generate with a fist or impact weapon (and everything was an impact weapon). Today's officer is far better served with the disposable service pistol, and being tough involves pushing a button on your electronic fighting device.