Except Fire/EMS aren't performing no-knocks.Originally Posted by BobM
When I was an EMT we would be banging and announcing on the doors, windows and trying every available method of entry before Fire would force entry.
I cannot contemplate how the fuck someone wouldn't know it's first responders.
"Are you ready? Okay. Let's roll."- Last words of Todd Beamer
Yeah I just can't see the fire dept doing a no knock entry.
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Apparently body armor for FF/EMT's is now a thing:
Madison firefighters add extra layer of protection with bulletproof vests
Starting next week, all Madison firefighters on every shift will have bulletproof vests assigned to them for added protection on any calls posing a higher risk for gunfire.
The new gear — totaling 90 vests, weighing 20 pounds a piece and lined with heavy ceramic plates to stop rounds from handguns to high-powered rifles — will be required for all Madison Fire Department personnel responding with police to provide medical help where bullets are or might be flying.
It’s part of the new reality of rendering aid in a society increasingly marred by mass shootings, often defined as four or more killings or attempted killings in one incident.
“This is for that bigger level — people running around shooting, victims on the ground bleeding,” said Che Stedman, the fire department’s chief of medical affairs. “That’s obviously become more prevalent in this country.”
And it reflects a shift in first-responder policy that puts saving the lives of injured people ahead of guaranteed safety for the emergency personnel who try to do it.
http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/loc...99092d08b.html
Me either, and if the law actually does read that way it seems like a good idea for EMS to decide if you can't come answer the door you must not really need medical help 10-8, no patient, next call.
We do this shit at my job pretty regularly....I say shit because we're usually there a long time before PD arrives and we scout the house (windows, doors etc) and try any and all viable options. There has been MANY times where I've taken a door or popped a window and I've had the muzzle of a G21 or X26 right next to me, as PD is chomping to get in there. I get it, we force doors and windows because they think that someone may be in trouble, that being said I've forced equally as many doors and windows to find nobody home. The one thing I will say is the ones where someone has been home, we've made voice contact with the person before we take the door because they're usually injured and cannot make it to the door, eliminating the startling factor. I don't know what the solution is, the PD is constantly busy on calls and the FD doesn't say no to anyone for anything (at least my job) so we're always going to respond, maybe this will change things.
Look! Just because we're bereaved, that doesn't make us saps!
I'm a little curious about the standard of justifiable self-defense. I've heard over the years via concealed carry classes or whatever (just anecdotal stuff) that shooting through a closed door is a no-no and that the law would hang you for it. Kind of like the stuff you hear from gun store commandos, "If you shoot them outside, drag them inside". However foolish an idea, it is based on the prevailing thought that someone outside your closed-up house while you are inside can't really be defined as presenting life-threatening danger.
Where does the line get drawn at who can be shot through the front door without fear of legal problems? Seems like a slippery slope.
Last edited by mc1911; 04-17-2016 at 08:55 PM.
This is an attorney question and will vary with your state laws, but my rule of thumb would be - can you 1) Positively ID (PID) who is at the door and 2) can you determine if they are a threat? How could you do that through a door? Via Video camera ? Via a window? Verbal challenge through the door ?
Here's the standard in Ohio:
(A) Every person accused of an offense is presumed innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, and the burden of proof for all elements of the offense is upon the prosecution. The burden of going forward with the evidence of an affirmative defense, and the burden of proof, by a preponderance of the evidence, for an affirmative defense, is upon the accused.
(B)
(1) Subject to division (B)(2) of this section, a person is presumed to have acted in self defense or defense of another when using defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another if the person against whom the defensive force is used is in the process of unlawfully and without privilege to do so entering, or has unlawfully and without privilege to do so entered, the residence or vehicle occupied by the person using the defensive force.
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News reports state that the reporting party was concerned because the shooter had been having blood sugar problems and had previously blacked out http://abcnews.go.com/US/man-cops-sh...ry?id=38466315. It's possible that he was mentally altered due to blood glucose level problems. Perhaps there are medical factors in play that aren't yet released due to HIPPA issues although that's just conjecture on my part. I've got 27 plus years in fire service and blood sugar issues have led to some wild encounters as patients pass trough the BGL levels from unconscious to altered to obnoxious to normal. Guys who fight hammer and tongs end up profusely apologetic once their sugar normalizes. Patients get very paranoid and combative when their BGL gets low. Those Snickers commercials aren't too far off.
A paramedic buddy of mine who works for a small city department within the Houston metroplex is issued IIIA armor and is required to wear it from 7pm-7am.
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