30th anniversary, FBI/Miami fight...........

[SLG]

Bottom line; four Metro-Dade street cops with shotguns, assuming that Platt and Mattix adhered to the felony stop playbook, could have ended this before it began.


.

I think you are kidding yourself. Numerous comments over your time here have shown that you don't like the Feds. It's true they don't do everything really well. Just like everyone else out there. I was a street cop in a much bigger, busier, more violent place than you were. Not counting half a dozen deployments to various sandboxes. I think you lack perspective, and have a bone to pick, for whatever reason.

"Assuming...adhered to the playbook." That says it all.

Read my post above. I left a lot out, but I'm certainly not defending the Bu's actions on that day.

[Gadfly]

I bash on the Feds (esp FBI), but I am a Fed.

State and locals do a lot more T stops than we ever will. But we get tons more training time and ammo than most local PDs ever will. We shoot quarterly (about 1k rounds per person per year) and get a full 8 hour training day per quarter, mandatory. Houston PD and Harris County SO in my area shoot 50 rounds per year, and up until a few years back, did not even draw during their course of fire (because the mandatory level three holsters were, you know, hard...). So, what is more relevant, the amount of T stops done per year, or the amount of training rounds fired per year? I would argue its still the individual and their mindset that matters most, equipment second.

In the end, the badge/agency does not make the person or vice versa. We have some switched on hard charges in our ranks, and some total dip shits. I am sure it is that way in every agency. Some of my guys would probably destroy any armed opponent, others I would not trust to run the coffee maker...

Side note, I read the FBI test on wound ballistics as a 16 year old, and by 18 wanted to bathe in the 10mm kool aid. By the time I decided to be a cop, I considered not even applying at any department that issued 9mm! Because, I read guns and ammo, so I knew more than them (rolls eyes).

Now with lots of time in the firearms training program, and lots of time seeing how HQ and PR folks handle things, I see behind the curtain. I see the Miami shootout as partially ammo failure, and the resulting call for a new pistol as a deflection. If the FBI admits their men were out fought, then they have to accept that their training and decisions were a contributing factor in the defeat. Soooo, its the Ammo's fault per FBI management! And if we (FBI) admit there was better ammo out there, and we were not using it, then we are still at fault. Soooooo, the best ammo was not available yet, we need the newest super duper 10mm ammo, and a whole new gun to launch it from! Not our fault, it was totally the ammo's fault! Marketing 101...we must maintain the aura of invincibility surrounding the FBI.

[HCM]

I left a lot out, but I'm certainly not defending the Bu's actions on that day.

Legit questions for both you (SLG) and LSP972 :

1) It's my understanding the agents involved in the fight were only a portion of the agents out looking for Platt and Matix that day but were simply the closest and first to arrive when the suspects were spotted. I was told the first two agents to arrive just after the fight were both armed with MP-5's, had better body armor and could have helped even things out if they had been closer. Is this correct ?

2) Two of the agents involved in the fight were local / regional SWAT agents armed with S&W 9mm pistols (459's?). My understanding is as SWAT members, even back then, they had access to M16's/AR-15's and/ or MP-5's but did not bring them due to the administrative hassles associated with getting management clearance to deploy them, getting them checked in and out of the armory etc.

On several occasions where things went aideways unexpectedly I've been the only guy who actually had his long gun with him rather than locked up at home or in the armory so #2 in particular has the ring of truth to me.

[HCM]

In the end, the badge/agency does not make the person or vice versa. We have some switched on hard charges in our ranks, and some total dip shits. I am sure it is that way in every agency. Some of my guys would probably destroy any armed opponent, others I would not trust to run the coffee maker...

Very much this ^^^^

[DacoRoman]

No doubt the FBI was suffering from a Dunning-Kruger effect, and had a horrible day because of it. The multiple tactical failures have been well documented, including on this thread. However, those agents still gave it everything they had, with great valor.

[Coyotesfan97]

I'm thinking Platt and Mattix don't pull over in a standard felony stop fan for patrol...

HCM I've heard the Agents with MP5s were on opposite ends of the banks under surveillance and couldn't get to the scene in time.

[Gadfly]

1) It's my understanding the agents involved in the fight were only a portion of the agents out looking for Platt and Matix that day but were simply the closest and first to arrive when the suspects were spotted. I was told the first two agents to arrive just after the fight were both armed with MP-5's, had better body armor and could have helped even things out if they had been closer. Is this correct ?

2) Two of the agents involved in the fight were local / regional SWAT agents armed with S&W 9mm pistols (459's?). My understanding is as SWAT members, even back then, they had access to M16's/AR-15's and/ or MP-5's but did not bring them due to the administrative hassles associated with getting management clearance to deploy them, getting them checked in and out of the armory etc.

On several occasions where things went aideways unexpectedly I've been the only guy who actually had his long gun with him rather than locked up at home or in the armory so #2 in particular has the ring of truth to me.

1) ** Internet RUMOR mill only**, but I have heard, the car with the two MP5s stopped off on a bathroom break. One guy taking a dump, the other grabbing coffee for the stakeout. The other agents started rolling out. The two agents out of the car did not have hand held radios, so they did not hear the radio traffic to start rolling. Once in the car and aware of the incident, the started to roll, but it took them a few minutes to find the location on the key map. Those few minutes add up... **May or may not be true, only rumor** sounds plausible though

2) Pre 9/11, you had to have a memo from a supervisor initialed by the District Director of investigations to sign out a long gun. Then that long gun had to be back in the armory at the end of the day. No taking it home. Soooooo, no one signed out shotguns. Post 9/11, we got the go ahead to hand out all the shotguns as full time/take home issue, because they did not good to anyone locked up in the armory...

[Gadfly]

, those agents still gave it everything they had, with great valor.

Agreed. I was not questioning their valor in the least with my post. The agents bit into a huge shit sandwich, and had to chew it up with the tools they had on hand. None ran, they stayed in the fight as best they could. Hats off to them.

My calling out of the FBI is the way the management framed everything after the fact. Rather than looking at their training and tactics taught in Quantico, they blamed the gun and ammo.

[41magfan]

I bash on the Feds (esp FBI), but I am a Fed.

State and locals do a lot more T stops than we ever will. But we get tons more training time and ammo than most local PDs ever will. We shoot quarterly (about 1k rounds per person per year) and get a full 8 hour training day per quarter, mandatory. Houston PD and Harris County SO in my area shoot 50 rounds per year, and up until a few years back, did not even draw during their course of fire (because the mandatory level three holsters were, you know, hard...). So, what is more relevant, the amount of T stops done per year, or the amount of training rounds fired per year? I would argue its still the individual and their mindset that matters most, equipment second.

In the end, the badge/agency does not make the person or vice versa. We have some switched on hard charges in our ranks, and some total dip shits. I am sure it is that way in every agency. Some of my guys would probably destroy any armed opponent, others I would not trust to run the coffee maker...

Side note, I read the FBI test on wound ballistics as a 16 year old, and by 18 wanted to bathe in the 10mm kool aid. By the time I decided to be a cop, I considered not even applying at any department that issued 9mm! Because, I read guns and ammo, so I knew more than them (rolls eyes).

Now with lots of time in the firearms training program, and lots of time seeing how HQ and PR folks handle things, I see behind the curtain. I see the Miami shootout as partially ammo failure, and the resulting call for a new pistol as a deflection. If the FBI admits their men were out fought, then they have to accept that their training and decisions were a contributing factor in the defeat. Soooo, its the Ammo's fault per FBI management! And if we (FBI) admit there was better ammo out there, and we were not using it, then we are still at fault. Soooooo, the best ammo was not available yet, we need the newest super duper 10mm ammo, and a whole new gun to launch it from! Not our fault, it was totally the ammo's fault! Marketing 101...we must maintain the aura of invincibility surrounding the FBI.

Gadfly pretty much nails it, but I'll just add just a few comments.

I had been a COP for about 7 years when this thing went down and my immediate thoughts on the matter have remained unchanged in spite of all the "analysis" that came afterward; the failure to achieve a positive outcome in this incident had very little - if anything - to do with hardware.

First off, with an 8 to 2 advantage in manpower, this incident should have had a different outcome irrespective of the weapons deployed by either side.

Secondly, when you have the advantage of picking when, where and how you elect to initiate a confrontation - don't squander it by doing something the greenest rookie COP on the planet would have likely never done.

Unless you're relying on luck - mindset, tactics and skill (in that order, IMO) - rule the day. Unfortunately, the good guys in this tragedy failed to make that a part of their plan.

[voodoo_man]

Good thread and excellent posts.

I bring this up whenever I talk to old timers or bosses who need a rude awakening. We learned these facts years ago and yet some places are very slow to adapt. This is either because of a fundamental failure in the system or something worse like stubborn bosses who want to set people up for failure, or death, unintentionally.

These types of incidents need to be studied and explained to anyone who doesnt think we cant or shouldn't change.