SPR CQB questions

[Josh Runkle]

School me on the best way to use a special purpose rifle for CQB. My thinking is that transitioning to offset irons or an offset red dot would be too slow and they would also add weight to a gun that is not designed with the idea of CQB.

The lowest power I have available is 2.5x, which is fine for anything past 10-12 yards at high speed, meaning, I can stay on the optic and move and shoot with both eyes open perfectly fine at that distance...

But...what about distances closer than that if you can't transition to a pistol?

Laser? Point shooting? A bright light with a very tightly focused beam? Aiming at the pelvis and placing a scope turret just under the muzzle to form a new sight picture? There's got to be some wisdom out there from someone who's worked this through before. Hopefully someone knowledgeable can answer.

*Calling on guys like Sean or Jack* (or anyone else with experience in this arena)

[Default.mp3]

SLG had one of the LaRue T-1 Ring Mounts on his rifle during the OK Run 'n' Gun. KAC also has [url=https://www.knightarmco.com/portfolio/34mm-30mm-scope-ring/?cate_cm=military&term=optic-mounts-military&features=34mm-30mm-scope-ring]a similar mount[/quote]. While it would be extra weight, the cant is much less than a standard 45° offset mount, and I don't think it would not be all that slow at all, at least for orthodox shooting positions.

[El Cid]

Are we talking about a .mil SPR? Do you have a choice in optics? I built an SPR-ish rifle and went with a 1-6. At 1x it has a larger FOV than any Aimooint or EOTech.

ETA: if Jack runs his heavy carbine course I can't recommend it strongly enough! It's where I learned to dislike offset irons/mrds. It was contact to 600 and very eye opening.

I have an AAR here that gives more of the take-aways.
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread....31-June-1-2014

[Odin Bravo One]

I have consolidated to three rifles: 14.5" Recce with a 1-6 dot/Xmas Tree, .308 w/ 3.5-21 + T1, and .300 Mag w/ 5.5-22 + T1.

T1 is less than ideal on either long gun. The 1x on the 1-6x is acceptable but still not perfect. However it holds MOA (by my definition) at CQC ranges. My "go to" ideal CQC set up is a 12" .300 BLK and a T-1/T-2, but ammo isn't everywhere and practical necessity keeps my guns into two cases with a dead hooker bag and a backpack as th max I can haul by myself from point A to point B.

[Josh Runkle]

I have consolidated to three rifles: 14.5" Recce with a 1-6 dot/Xmas Tree, .308 w/ 3.5-21 + T1, and .300 Mag w/ 5.5-22 + T1.

T1 is less than ideal on either long gun. The 1x on the 1-6x is acceptable but still not perfect. However it holds MOA (by my definition) at CQC ranges. My "go to" ideal CQC set up is a 12" .300 BLK and a T-1/T-2, but ammo isn't everywhere and practical necessity keeps my guns into two cases with a dead hooker bag and a backpack as th max I can haul by myself from point A to point B.

So, summarizing:

We both agree that an SPR is not ideal for CQB. I typically run 10.5-11.5" ARs with a T1 for 90% of my shooting...I keep it regular and boring.

But...it sounds like for a higher variable optic (I'm running 2.5-10x in this case), you still run a T1 at the same time. Do you recommend a 1 o'clock offset? I really just hate adding weight to anything, and was wondering if there was a trick to getting around that. Also, if you do shoot it at 1 o'clock, how can you hold the gun up with one hand if you need to move a person or handle or something with your offhand? Do you trap the gun under your armpit?

[TAZ]

My experiences are purely SQUARE range so take these comments/opinions with a truck load of salt.

I have an 18" SPR clone that generally sits in a safe now days unless I know I'm going to be using it in a supported position. Aka I like to plink and make little holes with it. It has a 2.5-10 FFP scope on it. For a while I have a LaRue offset ring set for an RMR. Not the unit that mounts to the scope tube but one that replaces the right half of the ring and has a platform for the RMR. Not sure what angle, but it did keep he RMR above bore centerline which I though was an added bonus. It works and required little canting of the gun to get on the dot. However, as with everything practice the crap out of it continuously cause if you don't you'll be hunting for that dot looking pretty retarded and burning time while you're at it. Maybe I'm just not that coordinated or something.

I found myself ignoring the dot and for really close stuff (inside 10) I'd do the best and center the blob in the optic and pull the trigger. Not precision by any stretch, but it was A-B zone capable. Either way I figured that a real person would not be all that happy taking incoming in the areas my rounds were impacting. Generally I'd keep the optic on low power with the illumination turned up bright and ONLY dial up the power when needing to make long shots. This is kind of where the FFP sucked as the reticle thinned out a LOT. The illumination helped. I generally found that it wasn't a 2.5-10 scope, but rather a 2.5 or 10 scope for me. Again square range, stationary targets... The biggest drawback to the SPR IMO was the weight. I'm not muscle man by any stretch, but I don't think I'm a noodle arms kind of guy either. Swinging that HEAVY muzzle around in rooms and such sux.

No NFA yet, so I've gone 16" lightweight with red dot. HUGE difference with handling and for my needs it does the job at every range I will hopefully never need to shoot at. A good 1-n would do the job for even longer ranges.

[Odin Bravo One]

So, summarizing:



But...it sounds like for a higher variable optic (I'm running 2.5-10x in this case), you still run a T1 at the same time. Do you recommend a 1 o'clock offset? I really just hate adding weight to anything, and was wondering if there was a trick to getting around that. Also, if you do shoot it at 1 o'clock, how can you hold the gun up with one hand if you need to move a person or handle or something with your offhand? Do you trap the gun under your armpit?

If I had extra delta points or RMRs I'd use those mounted at 12 on the rear scope ring as I really only use them as an immediate backup sight, and they still beat irons. But I tend to have extra T-1s laying around so that is what ended up on my two long range rifles. I don't use the mini RDS on my Recce gun. As for holding it with one hand? (Smart ass comment coming)........ I go to the gym.

[Josh Runkle]

As for holding it with one hand? (Smart ass comment coming)........ I go to the gym.

Haha. I should've expected that! I can hold and shoot the gun one handed, I just have trouble shooting it when it is rotated to 1 o'clock with one hand, but you don't sound like you prefer that mounting preference.

Ok, so, now you have like an 80 MOA difference between the red dot and the barrel, which is an even bigger cluster than the KRISS (who knew that was possible?). What zero do you use for the red dot? 50m? 25m? 10m?

[LOKNLOD]

Ok, so, now you have like an 80 MOA difference between the red dot and the barrel, which is an even bigger cluster than the KRISS (who knew that was possible?). What zero do you use for the red dot? 50m? 25m? 10m?

With that much vertical offset, I'd say zero it so it's flat out past where you'd start using the main optic, so the offset is consistent, and learn to shoot with the offset.

[SLG]

I do it slightly differently. For a number of years, I did all my CQB with a 14.5" M4. I never found it to be too long, and am very comfortable with that length. No question, shorter is easier, and for the last 5 years or so, I have used an 11.5" gun. On one deployment, I had a 2X ACOG on the gun, and though I don't prefer that, it worked just fine. Aimpoint all the rest of the time, with an S&B 1.5-6 as an option for overwatch.

For personal use, my go to gun currently has an 18" barrel and is set up like an SPR or a recce gun. I have a 2.5-10 NF as the main optic, and a T-2 offset from the tube of the scope. I use the NF for really all of my shots, and the T2 is a backup. If I want to burn down a range drill, like the VTAC 1-5, I will occasionally choose to use the T2 from the start. Is a 2.5X as fast as an aimpoint? No, but the difference isn't worth worrying about for me. As for one handed stuff, good luck using most scopes that way. The eye relief can sometimes cause too much of an issue, but that depends on your build and your strength. If I have to shoot one handed, it's going to have to be relatively close regardless of gun or optic. If I really need to do stuff/control people, I have switched to the handgun a few times, and will do so again.

Don't know if that helps or not, but for me, a gun setup that way is the best compromise between speed and accuracy and range. That is, a GP gun for times when I don't know what I'll need to do.