Great stuff - thought provoking!Originally Posted by Irelander
A few things, do:
1.) Beretta FTMFW
2.) Paul, why you gotta hate on my Prius, bro?!
#nolove
Great stuff - thought provoking!
A few things, do:
1.) Beretta FTMFW
2.) Paul, why you gotta hate on my Prius, bro?!
#nolove
You didn't think you were starting "show Les your busted up hands" when you opened this thread, did ya? Heh.
#lottsaloveforLes
I love your Prius! There I said it, it feels so much better out here, out of that closet.
"There is magic in misery. You need to constantly fail. Always bite off more than you can chew, put yourself in situations where you don't succeed then really analyze why you didn't succeed." - Dean Karnazes www.sbgillinois.com
This thread got me thinking big time since I've been using push/pull for years.
SLG and Surf's comments got me to try a "side clamp" / 360 degree grip pressure technique again. This time I tried Mike Seeklander's coaching cue of "crushing walnuts" where the base of my palms meet. As a result, my elbows were just slightly more bent than usual. When shooting I noticed I was less tense and it was easier to keep 2 rounds into a 3x5 at speed. Took some getting use to on longer shot strings, but the technique had a lot of potential. I wasn't yet faster compared to push/pull, but noticeably more consistent with accuracy.
Then I hurt my shooting hand in BJJ class. Had to switch to my non-dominant hand for a two handed grip.
Guess what helped stabilize a non-dominant two-handed grip when my "other support hand" was hurting...yep, isometric tension. I guess Paul Sharp also knows what he's talking about.
I don't want to speak for SLG or anyone else, but for myself please don't misunderstand that I am saying that a push / pull is necessarily or always incorrect. I will not teach it as a "baseline standard" but there are times that I may find myself using it out of necessity, maybe due to forced shooting position etc.This thread got me thinking big time since I've been using push/pull for years.
SLG and Surf's comments got me to try a "side clamp" / 360 degree grip pressure technique again. This time I tried Mike Seeklander's coaching cue of "crushing walnuts" where the base of my palms meet. As a result, my elbows were just slightly more bent than usual. When shooting I noticed I was less tense and it was easier to keep 2 rounds into a 3x5 at speed. Took some getting use to on longer shot strings, but the technique had a lot of potential. I wasn't yet faster compared to push/pull, but noticeably more consistent with accuracy.
Then I hurt my shooting hand in BJJ class. Had to switch to my non-dominant hand for a two handed grip.
Guess what helped stabilize a non-dominant two-handed grip when my "other support hand" was hurting...yep, isometric tension. I guess Paul Sharp also knows what he's talking about.
Having gone the same route over the years of martial arts, sports and OTJ injuries I am very sympathetic in regards to understanding the need to be able to adapt for certain physical limitations. This does not mean that my own limitations will keep me from teaching others a "baseline standard" that I feel is most correct and that will yield the best results. In other words, I am not going to make my limitations or inability to perform to a more correct standard the "normal" for everyone else. If a shooter is having a problem I will adjust from that correct baseline technique and attempt to find an alternative method or variation that fits that particular person, still with the understanding that what works as a fix for one person, may not be the same fix for someone else.
As for what you mention about the side to side grip described by Seeklander it is a good standard however I like to describe a more inward roll of the hands while still using the side to side clamping of the palms. Very similar technique and it creates a very tight lock and can greatly aid those with strength issues while maintaining a more neutral point of aim. While using the side to side clamp pressure, raise the elbows up and outward a bit and think about trying to roll index fingers inward almost as if your trying to turn your palms down. You need to maintain a good positive lock with the fingers and hands and not actually let the heels of the hands separate from the pistol.
This inward roll variation creates a lot of clamping force on the weapon to stabilize it while maintaining that similar neutrality that you found with the grip described by Seeklander. If a shooter is having grip or strength problems, I would try to get them into this technique first, primarily for the reason you mention about a more neutral bias on the weapon so that it tracks back to a more natural or neutral point of aim. Of course if they are still having problems or a physical limitation that does not allow for this type of grip or technique, we keep adjusting and optimize whatever we find that works for them.
Bottom line, there will always exist a baseline of technique that is going to be considered the most effective standard. It may not fit every instance and it does not forever remain static, but generally improves over time. Given that, one shoe size has never fit everyone, nor will it ever do so in the future and there are valid reasons for using alternatives when it comes to technique. I don't think any worthwhile trainer won't understand shooter limitations be it body type, physical limitations due to injury, age, etc and have alternative methods to work with them. Some people are also outliers and perform outside of the normal in a manner that others cannot easily or ever duplicate. You cannot teach someone to be a Michael Jordan, he just is.
Necro post.
I want to use this thread as a place to collect information and revisit it as my skills and technique evolve. I currently find that my grip/stance is the single biggest factor in my ability to shoot well. It's also one of the hardest things to talk about or explain because of all the very subtle variation possible in tension/pressure/angle/force etc...
Here is Rob Leatham's explanation of "push-pull". He seems to be of the opinion that mod iso vs push-pull has been widely misunderstood, and that it isn't a question of A vs B, but instead a synergy of Ab.
Of particular interest to me is his example of simply shooting the gun one handed, then adding the second hand grip without changing the way you "get behind the gun"(push or lockout) with your firing hand. I've never thought about or visualized the concept in those exact terms before.
It's going to be a couple weeks before I can live-fire and experiment while keeping this in mind under recoil, so I am hoping that this thread will remind me of what I want to practice and how to go about it.
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