With the fo-tay and the fotay-five the gun moves significantly less in my hand and my left hand is more involved in the process, so to speak.Originally Posted by Mr_White
With the fo-tay and the fotay-five the gun moves significantly less in my hand and my left hand is more involved in the process, so to speak.
I was taught and used the push pull some 40+ years ago with the weaver originally taught to me by my father. I was then formally trained with the push / pull as I adapted into a Chapman type of shooter about 26 years ago. The push / pull while it can work with a mod iso (not well for me) seemed more of a necessity / normal relationship due to the Weaver or Chapman types of techniques themselves.
I adopted a more current mod iso, with more side to side clamping pressure some 15 or so years ago. I will say that I may find myself in an awkward position that may align me into more of a Chapman type of set up and I will naturally use more front to rear pressure as necessitated by the situation. With a Chapman it creates a good lock for a push pull method, but still has issues, which is why I don't and most modern technique has moved away from the Chapman or similar.
I am not opposed to revisiting older techniques and have extensively tried front to rear iso tension with a mod iso and for myself it created too much un-natural tension which felt different and affected me different than in a Chapman. More muscle tension in the arms and upper body affecting my natural point of aim and my trigger finger manipulation in relation to not only how I pulled the trigger, but what my grip did during the trigger manipulations. Also caused faster fatigue and over a long day or days affects my vision negatively as I already have issues with eye dominance. I think that I personally played the push / pull iso tension to death and it will stay in the past where I left it many years ago.
Yes, different things work for different people, but I will agree with what Mr. White also mentions about knowing what we know at our current place in time. Hell who knows, maybe I will come full circle and work my way back to a two handed Weaver and FBI point shooting for one handed stuff.
Last edited by Surf; 04-07-2016 at 02:20 PM.
My one reason for posting this is the following: I dunno of anyone, other than McPhee, who advocates a push-pull, in a more-or-less traditional sense. It seems like anyone doing any sort of serious work has moved far and away from isometric tension while shooting a pistol. (I dunno what the doctrine is for rifles...)
OGposter asked about use/non-use and getting detailed... That video is pretty in depth...
One thing I'll say for McPhee is he is not dogmatic. He freely states that the individual's needs are that individual's needs. Here we tend to focus on the guys who are training a lot and training often. Not everyone can or will, and things that make sense for the expert sometimes fall apart for the novice.
The example I generally use is when some pretty high speed rifle shooters from .mil came to us to help the patrol rifle program. Some of the stuff they can do is absolutely amazing, IMO, with an M4. If I tried to replicate it, I would be too exposed for too long and would be less safe vs more safe. I am not fast enough, accurate enough, and do not have the time and training availability to get to their level...so I have to tailor it to my abilities.
For ME, the slight pull with the left hand works, even now that I've mostly recovered grip strength. I still have crooked fingers and numb fingers. I still have issues in my neck. I am not strong enough to get anything out of the squeezing with the shoulders toward the center line. I rely on grip and push pull, as I cannot muster much side to side pressure.
I think that is true to some degree, but focusing, specifically on the topic of grip, it seems like most have moved instructors have moved past isometrics into whatever we do today (what do we call this? "Thumbs forward grip"?)
Additionally, I thought the vid painted a pretty clear picture of grip, but I'm curious to hear what the poster thinks of it...
I totally get that: adapt, overcome.
Well, McPhee is advocating a thumbs forward, but with a bit of push/pull. It's not full blown Weaver push/pull. My take away from him is to crush the gun from all angles so it can't move. Now, he's a strong dude. A little push/pull for him is still a lot of force. He's not replacing lateral or grip force, he's supplementing. Now, I used to shoot a bit more like Ben there in your video, but I also used to shoot a 1911. I can't shoot like that now or I'll ride the slide stop on my Sig. So, thumb high on the strong hand, thumb forward on the weak hand, a bit of push/pull, and whatever minuscule lateral pressure I'm mustering.
Different levels of strength, different levels of dedication to draw practice and building the grip, etc will change what's the best for that person. I like Ben's grip and I really dig the speed it can be obtained and the consistency of it. I just can't do it.
This is my hand:
If I don't get my support hand up and over my pinky, not only does it suck for shooting, it causes blisters pretty quickly. It's actually a feature when it's time to shoot small guns, I never have a pinky hanging under the grip and can get all my fingers exerting pressure on a j-frame...It's a bug when shooting duty sized guns two handed, though.
0_o
Very well done vid. When I met him at a short seminar in Dawsonville, GA last year I was struck by how much bigger he was in person than I had surmised in vids. Figures.
“Remember, being healthy is basically just dying as slowly as possible,” Ricky Gervais
I am told ,second hand, that Eric Grauffel uses a Push Pull style of grip. This is from people who trained with him last year
FWIW, when I tried what was explained to me by the students of that class the gun tracked terribly and I very rapidly returned.
Welcome to Africa, bring a hardhat.
First off let me state, I am No Where near the level that many here are, and may or may not be a better shooter than you, but I started with revolvers then transitioned to semis with the push/pull, and have tried everything in between.
I have a tendency to push/pull to damm hard canting the gun to the left or pulling it down. I can see the advantage of the squeeze...clam shell... high grip... cant support hand forward... lock wrist method, and have tried to transition to it, but when the adrenaline pumps I tend to revert back to the push pull.
Old habits are hard to break, I really don't think one method works for everyone. Fist sized groups at 10-15 yards aint bad, depending on speed of course.
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