Push/Pull Isometric Tension

[frozentundra]

I was listening to a John McPhee "Sheriff of Baghdad" Podcast and he very briefly mentioned using push/pull recoil control. This got me to thinking about it and apparently I've gotten away from creating much of the push/pull isometric tension in my grip. I think I started focusing more on camming my left wrist forward while gripping the gun high and hard vs. actually using my support hand as an abutment for my shooting hand. I should mention that I'm not a very high level shooter by PF standards and I have pretty limited training compared to many here.

Anyway, I went out and shot a few rounds concentrating on building more push/pull tension. My sights felt like they were tracking better than normal and I felt more accurate at speed, even out to 10-15 yards. The speed at which I could keep roughly fist sized groups at 10ish yards was particularly gratifying, although I didn't have a timer and I don't keep track of such things well to begin with. Perhaps it was even helping my trigger control, or lack thereof.

I'm hoping to get thoughts from some better shooters about how you use(or don't use) that push/pull isometric tension in your grip/stance. I've noticed that when talking about nuanced things like grip pressure, tension, force direction etc., the terminology can mean different things to different people. Sometimes people seem to use very disparate language, while trying to explain the same concept. Or the opposite, where they are using the same words, but driving at very different meanings. For this reason, I hope everyone can try to be somewhat specific if you get into one of those gray areas.

I'm really curious to see what different people think on this topic.

[BehindBlueI's]

I was listening to a John McPhee "Sheriff of Baghdad" Podcast and he very briefly mentioned using push/pull recoil control. This got me to thinking about it and apparently I've gotten away from creating much of the push/pull isometric tension in my grip. I think I started focusing more on camming my left wrist forward while gripping the gun high and hard vs. actually using my support hand as an abutment for my shooting hand. I should mention that I'm not a very high level shooter by PF standards and I have pretty limited training compared to many here.

Anyway, I went out and shot a few rounds concentrating on building more push/pull tension. My sights felt like they were tracking better than normal and I felt more accurate at speed, even out to 10-15 yards. The speed at which I could keep roughly fist sized groups at 10ish yards was particularly gratifying, although I didn't have a timer and I don't keep track of such things well to begin with. Perhaps it was even helping my trigger control, or lack thereof.

I'm hoping to get thoughts from some better shooters about how you use(or don't use) that push/pull isometric tension in your grip/stance. I've noticed that when talking about nuanced things like grip pressure, tension, force direction etc., the terminology can mean different things to different people. Sometimes people seem to use very disparate language, while trying to explain the same concept. Or the opposite, where they are using the same words, but driving at very different meanings. For this reason, I hope everyone can try to be somewhat specific if you get into one of those gray areas.

I'm really curious to see what different people think on this topic.

I've taken his class, and the push/pull has helped me quite a bit with recoil control. I've got an AAR up if you search for it, but basically it helped me track my sights quite a bit better, let me relax my dominant hand so I wasn't pushing rounds left, etc. I credit McPhee's class, and consistently practicing what he taught me, for most of my improvement over the past year.

[breakingtime91]

I was listening to a John McPhee "Sheriff of Baghdad" Podcast and he very briefly mentioned using push/pull recoil control. This got me to thinking about it and apparently I've gotten away from creating much of the push/pull isometric tension in my grip. I think I started focusing more on camming my left wrist forward while gripping the gun high and hard vs. actually using my support hand as an abutment for my shooting hand. I should mention that I'm not a very high level shooter by PF standards and I have pretty limited training compared to many here.

Anyway, I went out and shot a few rounds concentrating on building more push/pull tension. My sights felt like they were tracking better than normal and I felt more accurate at speed, even out to 10-15 yards. The speed at which I could keep roughly fist sized groups at 10ish yards was particularly gratifying, although I didn't have a timer and I don't keep track of such things well to begin with. Perhaps it was even helping my trigger control, or lack thereof.

I'm hoping to get thoughts from some better shooters about how you use(or don't use) that push/pull isometric tension in your grip/stance. I've noticed that when talking about nuanced things like grip pressure, tension, force direction etc., the terminology can mean different things to different people. Sometimes people seem to use very disparate language, while trying to explain the same concept. Or the opposite, where they are using the same words, but driving at very different meanings. For this reason, I hope everyone can try to be somewhat specific if you get into one of those gray areas.

I'm really curious to see what different people think on this topic.

I have found that simple is better. Bring gun with thumbs pointed forward to eye line, grip the shit out of it, and then work the trigger. Nothing too crazy, simple is better. Not saying push pull can't be accomplished and utilized through training but everythign I know and have experiences is that I grip the shit out of the gun with both hands and try to focus on the trigger/sights component.

[RMF]

I've used the push/pull with a weaver/modified weaver ever since the team in Paulden taught us that way. It works for me but I'm kinda old'ish and set in my ways :-)

[imp1295]

I've taken his class, and the push/pull has helped me quite a bit with recoil control. I've got an AAR up if you search for it, but basically it helped me track my sights quite a bit better, let me relax my dominant hand so I wasn't pushing rounds left, etc. I credit McPhee's class, and consistently practicing what he taught me, for most of my improvement over the past year.

Same for me. Took his class back in November. Between his class and some grip points from Paul Sharp my sight tracking has started to improve.

I still have a ways to go to consistently not revert back to my previous mod iso, but it is a journey.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[SAWBONES]

I've used the push/pull with a weaver/modified weaver ever since the team in Paulden taught us that way. It works for me but I'm kinda old'ish and set in my ways :-)

Yeah, I'm in the same boat.

Never could fully get the hang of the newfangled "squeeze both hands the hell together isosceles" after so many years training push-pull modified Weaver.

[Sal Picante]

I don't do push-pull, I do pretty much what Ben says here. It seems to work pretty well for me.



Shameless plug for my homie: There is other great info and detail in the video... Buy a copy and support a retard?
http://benstoegerproshop.com/practic...n-stoeger-dvd/

[JustOneGun]

First of all in my opinion the grip is the most important fundamental. It is also the most personal that somehow defies description of how we do it. Sadly due to foolishness of us customers a good instructor who can help you fix that most important fundamental will rarely have a class called, "grip dynamics" but they all should.

For me I learned the push/pull, weaver system and transitioned five years later to a thumbs forward. After a year and 6,000 rounds of learning the thumbs forward(it wasn't called thumbs forward then but clam shell or something like that) I was able to shoot faster and more accurate than the push pull. This really showed up when I was moving. It was more difficult to learn but it also worked well in all situations.

That cam effect for me starts at the tip of my support hand and ends at the top of the wrist. The cam anchor is locked on the bottom of the knuckles of my primary hand. Thus driving the shooting hand into the pistol. The tightness of the support hand locked and pressed into the pistol shows me that there is in fact a front to back, "Push" involved. That tension is just closer to 360 degrees than a push pull ever could give. Of course that's the point. More pressing into the pistol and more control. The clamping inward on the sides of the pistol for me is not as hard as the old push pull. It's just enough to keep it all locked in over the cycling of the pistol.

Other people might describe it differently and when you perfect your grip you will probably describe it differently. Such is the grip. Finally I would say that you will have to keep shooting with a focus on the grip. You will have to make subtle changes to the grip in order to make it your own. Out of everything I learned about the pistol, the grip took the most time and focus to get right.

[Mr_White]

Lots of things can work well if we work hard on them. Ultimately, the proof is in the function that you observe. So I wouldn't argue if someone is accurately perceiving that push-pull works well for them. There is always the issue that while we may believe it works 'well', that there would be more potential with some other technique, which is why it's good to still consider alternatives even if we are getting results we like from what we are already doing. In that light, maybe I should try push-pull just to see? Anyway, my concern about push-pull is whether it might introduce asymmetry to the grip or arm pressures and end up pushing or pulling (lol) the gun somewhere other than where we want. But if we're seeing what is going on with the sights while we are shooting, we should get clued into that. Just now, airgunning with a push-pull grip, I don't like it. I do feel it effectively tightening my hold on the gun itself, but it also feels like it changes the tensions between my arms and torso. I'd figure that will turn into sight movement that I don't like, but live fire would be a better test.

[11B10]

Lots of things can work well if we work hard on them. Ultimately, the proof is in the function that you observe. So I wouldn't argue if someone is accurately perceiving that push-pull works well for them. There is always the issue that while we may believe it works 'well', that there would be more potential with some other technique, which is why it's good to still consider alternatives even if we are getting results we like from what we are already doing. In that light, maybe I should try push-pull just to see? Anyway, my concern about push-pull is whether it might introduce asymmetry to the grip or arm pressures and end up pushing or pulling (lol) the gun somewhere other than where we want. But if we're seeing what is going on with the sights while we are shooting, we should get clued into that. Just now, airgunning with a push-pull grip, I don't like it. I do feel it effectively tightening my hold on the gun itself, but it also feels like it changes the tensions between my arms and torso. I'd figure that will turn into sight movement that I don't like, but live fire would be a better test.

I'm in the middle of transitioning to a thumbs-forward shooting grip with what have been so far, very good results. I am really anxious to hear how live fire works with the push-pull for you, Mr. White.