Frangible: Damaging to barrels?

[c4v3man]

I've spent more than a few hours researching frangible ammunition, since due to a move, I am no longer as close to BLM land, which I used to practice on. I purchased a new M&P 9mm, and was thinking about trying out the only indoor range in town, which is a few minutes away from where I live, as opposed to 30-40 minutes each way to get to BLM. They only use lead free frangible rounds, and the expense is about double that of regular ammunition. Honestly the price isn't a huge concern, I'm more concerned about the potential damage in the barrel from the use of sintered rounds? The reports I've read vary from damage due to the lead-free primers, which seems to be a non-issue nowadays due to changing the primer crimping and flash hole, but the bullets themselves seem to be damaging to barrels. One report talked about a competition shooter, who would begin to see a slight degradation in performance over 2000 rounds as opposed to over 10,000 rounds with standard fmj cartridges. Another police department had a report that indicated that barrels showed significant damage, with some barrels even becoming smooth, completely eroding the rifling. Another report for an indoor training area indicated that barrels needed to be replaced every 6 months.

I was curious of the opinions of others here as to the long-term ramifications of using frangible ammunition, especially in regards to pistols (as opposed to .223 chambered rifles, etc). Would be interesting to see the next 50,000 round pistol test conducted using frangible ammunition, to see how it affects wear and tear.

Link referenced above discussing barrel wear in military application.

Link referenced above in relation to competition shooter wearing out barrels in 2,000 vs 10,000 rounds.

[Tamara]

Well, I don't think all frangible ammo is made out of the same metals, for starters, which would make it hard to generalize.

[John Hearne]

Although, it doesn't directly answer your question, I understand that there are some potentially serious health consequences to frangible. Apparently, the various metals in frangible are far worse for you than any lead round.

[c4v3man]

Well, I don't think all frangible ammo is made out of the same metals, for starters, which would make it hard to generalize.

Fair enough, but I guess the question is since frangible rounds (and I'm referring to fully frangible rounds, not jacketed rounds with frangible materials on the inside) are designed to break upon hitting anything harder than itself, isn't it likely to leave granular residue inside the barrel, since the barrel itself is harder than the bullet? I've read where some shooters claim to be able to see a puff of smoke/frangibles at the end of the barrel when firing that looks different than traditional rounds.

Although, it doesn't directly answer your question, I understand that there are some potentially serious health consequences to frangible. Apparently, the various metals in frangible are far worse for you than any lead round.

I hadn't heard that directly, although I did read a post where they were complaining about the instructors using respirators during the course of fire, and how others were complaining about coughing, headaches, etc when being exposed to the rounds enough. My question regarding that would be that if it's more toxic, is only toxic if you're near where the bullet disintegrates, such as close range hard targets, or indoor simulations in enclosed areas (simulation apartment, etc).

This study would seem to indicate that simply being near where the weapon is being fired will expose you to more of certain substances, to be sure. The question then becomes whether or not pistol rounds (with obviously less powder, and at a lower velocity, and I believe a smaller primer if you're using a caliber that uses a small pistol primer) are similar enough to this study, which appears to be using a M16 (although I didn't look too closely at the weapon, so please don't hassle me too badly if I'm incorrect).


I guess the problem is that while the health benefits can be seen as documented, I haven't personally seen a study indicating that barrel wear is higher. It's all based on what "some guy on the internet said". I know it seems hypocritical to then ask a forum, full of "guys from the internet" for their experience/opinions, but I'm curious just the same.

[Tamara]

Other than putting a half-case or so of PMC Green through my previous M4gery, my only serious exposure to frangibles was at that 3-day Todd Jarrett course at Blackwater. Since one of the sponsors of that shindig was International Cartridge, all the ammo was their "Green Elite" training ammo, which, to my understanding, uses a sintered and plated bullet.

I'd imagine that the plating would be enough to prevent the projectile from doing anything bad to the bore, and certainly the pistol's accuracy wasn't affected to any noticeable degree by the case, case-and-a-half of ammo put through it that weekend. (Because there's nothing that'll pile up a round count faster than shooting Other People's Ammunition. )

Shooting steel from retention distances is weird, and I doubt I'd make a hobby of it: You can feel the grains of the disintegrated projectiles coming back at you, like dust in the air on a windy day out west or at the beach... As John referenced, depending on the exact blend of powdered metals used to make the bullets, there could be shit in there that you really don't want sitting in your lungs in particle form.

On the other hand, you would probably need to do a LOT of shooting under those conditions for any serious exposure, and most people frankly just don't shoot that much. (For instance, I find myself a lot less worried about my blood lead level now that I don't work at an indoor range and am currently not reloading. It's hard to get significant buildups with my only exposure being weekly outdoor range sessions.)

[Odin Bravo One]

I shoot several thousands of rounds per year of frangible rifle and pistol ammunition, and have yet to see any accelerated wear from it.

[ToddG]

I've seen a number of pistol barrels that were completely ruined in less than 5,000 rounds of shooting frangible ammunition. The debris that explodes into the gun each time it's fired also has a more deleterious effect than normal ammunition. At the very least, I would get a dedicated "frangible" barrel and be as responsible as possible to clean it after every single range session. Better yet, a dedicated training gun would be a smart move.

[Tamara]

I've seen a number of pistol barrels that were completely ruined in less than 5,000 rounds of shooting frangible ammunition. The debris that explodes into the gun each time it's fired also has a more deleterious effect than normal ammunition.

A particular brand/type? I know the chalky-looking bullets PMC uses appeared different in makeup from the plated ones from the ICC stuff. Obviously both you and Sean M have a shitload more experience with frangibles than me, and you're reporting differing results, and I'm wondering if that could be a factor.

[ToddG]

Speer and Winchester.

[Tamara]

I have no experience with either. Do they not use any kind of plating or coating to keep shit from ablating off the base of the bullet when fired or something?