Are Shotguns Really Old and Busted?

[SpyderMan2k4]

Since the AWB sunset in '04, it's pretty much been all ARs all the time. I think there's a combination of reasons for this- People could once again own them along with all of the features, more exposure with the wars in the middle east (via first hand or media), and honestly the increased use of the internet. Take a look at the countless photo threads on almost any forum and it becomes incredibly obvious that ARs are the cool, sexy solution. It doesn't take long for a lot of people to begin justifying purchases and therefore uses. Before long, some of these people start envisioning tactical band camp scenarios that they "require" such a loadout. We've all seen pictures of the 400lb guys open carrying their ARs. This guy isn't busting down doors, he's playing Call of Duty.

Point being, people start loosing sight of what THEIR mission TRULY is. The saying is the mission drives the gear. The saying should be YOUR mission should drive YOUR gear, because people start basing their gear off of other people's mission, or what they wish their mission was. People are certainly free to do with their money as they please, and there's nothing wrong with good, expensive, cool guy gear. However, it's easy to start down that rabbit hole and begin overlooking many other viable options- i.e. the shotgun.

Once you begin looking at realistic, in the home, across the room scenarios, the game changes completely and this is what the bulk of every day people need to be concerned with when it comes to long gun selection. Most people in the know with a lot of shotgun experience (Tom Givens, Darryl Bolke, Steve Fisher, Chuck Haggard, etc) all agree that shotguns excel at close distances when you need to stop someone RIGHT NOW. Tom Givens' explanation of serving size per bad guy in regards to ammo capacity is fantastic. Basically, a typical response with an AR is 5-7 rounds, so you probably only have 4-6 servings in an AR mag. The typical requirement for a shotgun is 1-2 rounds, so most defensive shotguns will have 4-6 servings (often more, because there are not many cases of shogun uses requiring more than 1 round with a good hit.) Not only does this negate the need for "high capacity", but factoring in the split times, you're going to spend more time shooting a the AR than you will the shotgun (based on those stats).

With Flight Control, there is a far less likely chance of stray pellets. You can put the round where you want it. I've seen some people say that shotguns take more training. Not really, it just takes very specific, good training. Pump guns are great for the budget. Stepping up to something like the 1301, it's an incredible home defense option. It's lighter than an 870, split times are lighting fast, recoil is very mild, and it's insanely reliable. Especially in a place with restrictions that seems like an incredible option. I have no restrictions where I live, I have a couple ARs and an AK, and the 12g (1301 specifically) is currently the long gun of choice inside the home.

[pablo]

Shotguns are like bumble bees, the math doesn't add up on paper but the real world results are much better.

Shotguns don't have the cool guy factor. A lot rifle training classes rarely have any shooting outside of distances and situations where shotguns excel. There's no need for a rifle for COM and face shooting at 7 yards. Learning to run a rifle outside of pistol distance is a lot to ask of some people, let alone learning a platform that takes a little bit of practice. The training market it awash in prior service types that have a lot of time behind rifles, but really don't have any business teaching. Give them a shotgun and they really start to show their asses as firearm instructors. Instead of taking the time to learn how to run a shotgun, they just declare shotguns suck. There's a reason why the shotgun separates the serious shooters from the dabblers in three gun competition. Running a shotgun isn't rocket science, but it definitely is going to take some time to learn and maintain skills, most people are better off with an AR pattern rifle. It's like the car driving analogy, it's easier to learn to drive a car with an automatic and just worry about driving, than it is to have to learn a clutch, shifting, gear selection and driving at one time.

Foster slugs don't penetrate nearly as well as some people think. Stray buckshot is always a concern, but flat out missing is a bigger issue IMO, and buckshot and slugs don't have the near the down range potential that errant rifle rounds have. Pick your poison.

[Mitchell, Esq.]

This one time at band camp...

No, wait, it was a rifle day...nevermind...I decided for S&G (last word is "Giggles") use a Mossberg 500 with a side saddle instead of an AR-15 for all the drills.

I was pleasantly surprised at how well I kept up and how I rather quickly got used to reloading the tube and dropping rounds into the breach when the tube ran dry even when moving.

Is an AR faster? More capacity? Lower recoil? Yes.
Would I rather have an AR than a shotgun if I didn't know what was going to happen but I knew "Stuff, Undetermined, Sub-Category: Bad" were likely going to occur in the immediate future? Yes.

But I wouldn't feel terribly disadvantaged for any situation I am likely to encounter either.

I'd like to run a rifle drills day with a stock SKS and see how that stacks up as well against an AR.
I have a feeling it wouldn't be terrible. Not great, but workable.

[Chuck Haggard]

In some circumstances the gauge makes more sense than the AR, and I'll say that I am a huge advocate for the AR in police work.

People who live in places where really big animals also live, and those animals sometimes pick a fight, will find slugs more gooder than .223 rounds.

Guys who bird hunt or shoot clays of some sort tend to be far better off with a shotgun.

People with a dual purpose need. I've helped several people in my area, outside of the city limits, get set up with a shotgun that is for both varmints and bad guys as the need arises. A load of high brass #4s, or a turkey loading, will also wreck a coyote trying to get your barn cat/chickens/ducks/weiner dog/etc.

People who don't have $1000 or so for a decent AR but want a good home defense long gun.


As Tom notes in his observation of student shootings, the average police shotgun engagement is a one round event. Shotguns at close range remove meat from bone. I've seen some traumatic near amputations of people's arms from close range 12 gauge hits, even with birdshot.

[secondstoryguy]

Shotguns are awesome for field euthanasia and breaching using a high brass load with small shot...other than that gimme an AR. Buckshot sucks against cars or any kinda cover(no surprise, it's soft lead with a low B/C) and the range limitations even with flight control wads kill it's versatility. That being said, at room distances on unarmored flesh they are devastating(as Chuck said above...like arms and legs hanging off devastating). GJMs posts have made me yearn for a Benelli shorty SBR for duty use but I'd have to put so much precious training time into it I've shelved the idea.

[warpedcamshaft]

That Federal Flight Control stuff seems like magic to me. I really would not have believed it if I hadn't seen it.

Its like a 9 shot burst from a V61 Scorpion with every trigger pull. (9 x 32 cal)

7 Yards, All 9 pellets in the Head-Box.

25 yards, all 9 pellets in an A-Zone.

40 yards, 4 A-zone, 5 C-zone.

From a cylinder bore....


I personally think shotguns are greatly overlooked in the civilian sector right now. Probably because of "Ninja from the Ceiling" wargaming rather than realistic assessment of needs. (Things like: Yeah, but what if 10 angry communist invaders open up with a belt-fed from the water tower... what are you going to do then? -VS- How can I keep a potential exchange of gunfire with 1-3 adversaries, most likely inside of 25 yards, as short as possible to reduce my likelihood of injury. )

[Dagga Boy]

Shotguns are awesome for field euthanasia and breaching using a high brass load with small shot...other than that gimme an AR. Buckshot sucks against cars or any kinda cover(no surprise, it's soft lead with a low B/C) and the range limitations even with flight control wads kill it's versatility. That being said, at room distances on unarmored flesh they are devastating(as Chuck said above...like arms and legs hanging off devastating). GJMs posts have made me yearn for a Benelli shorty SBR for duty use but I'd have to put so much precious training time into it I've shelved the idea.

By the same token....5.56 also sucks on cars. I was big on the shotgun for counter vehicle stuff and simply went to slug and had my guns set up for an easy slug transition. Slugs work very well against bad guys in cars.

[HCM]

By the same token....5.56 also sucks on cars. I was big on the shotgun for counter vehicle stuff and simply went to slug and had my guns set up for an easy slug transition. Slugs work very well against bad guys in cars.

Full power slugs work well against bad guys in cars. Low recoil slugs, not as much. #noshotgunnerleftbehind.

[TheRoland]

I've long wondered if a comped 16" AR was more or less likely to do serious hearing damage than a 18.5" 12 gauge; it's always seems like shotguns weren't as terrible indoors, but data from googling makes me think they might be about the same.

[Randy Harris]

All things in the proper context. The shotgun is excellent (and always has been) at repelling borders at close range.

What exactly are we doing with a home defense long gun? Repelling borders....at close range.

If we are honest about the problem and look for solutions that fit THAT problem then (while not as sexy as an M4 or an AK or whatever) the shotgun still has a lot going for it IF the operator is trained to use it. Is it the best choice for DEVGRU, CAG or FBI HRT? No. Different missions. But is it the long standing undisputed champ at making people lay down and stop fighting (with very few rounds expended) at pistol range? Probably. Even an "obsolete" Winchester 97 will ruin a home invaders day in short order. Remember the Germans were none too happy to face them in the trenches. And what is a trench?...... A hallway. The pump shotgun worked well in France 100 years ago and they'll still stop people today in hallways (or across a bedroom) in American homes today.

Assuming we feel like a pump is too "old school" and we want to opt for a Semi auto shotgun, the Remington 1187 and Benelli M1 and M4 semi autos work well. Some will argue that semis are more susceptible to dirty conditions....maybe so, but just exactly how dirty is your house? If we are talking a HD gun then it is not likely to get dragged through mud. It is more likely to get covered in a thin layer of dust from lack of handling it. Keep it relatively clean and they work just fine.

Now we can't carry as much ammo for the shotgun as efficiently as we can carry ammo for a carbine, but for an HD gun how much ammo do you REALLY envision needing? Between the 4 - 8 in the gun and the 6 extra in a butt cuff or a sidesaddle that is more than any one individual fired at the OK Corral gunfight...... and on that subject, the guy shot with the shotgun in Tombstone that day was not able to return fire...he simply staggered and crumpled to the ground.

Where the shotgun starts to become problematic is when we are facing large numbers of armored opponents at range.....and if that sounds like the likely scenario in your hood then by all means get a rifle. But if you find yourself repelling unarmored home invaders who are inside the house and getting closer then the shotgun still works just as well now as it did 200 years ago.