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Thread: Mini rant on current events

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom_Jones View Post
    SLG is trolling for likes.
    He's pretty dreamy, no doubt.
    #RESIST

  2. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pink View Post
    This is probably the best ideas yet. Get different points of view and use what is practical. I was in the military and was lucky enough to attend over 30 different firearms related courses. I picked a few things up along the way. That is why the "Elite" units out there bring in different instructors. Imagine if you could shoot as fast as a USPSA GM, as accurate as a Bulleyes champion and be as tactical as a SWAT operator. Miyamoto Musashi: Study everything, keep what is useful and do not limit yourself to any one system. The Book of Five Rings is worth reading.

    Not picking on you, but you're limiting yourself and as most people, don't have a true grasp of an operator's mission. Our unit spent a lot of time going to different conceal carry type courses back in the day. After 9/11, there was a reason why the Air Marshals called on former SOF guys to teach their agents how to shoot. Many times I traveled in civilian clothes in locations where I didn't have "back-up" and I was "responsible for managing my personal safety against violent threats." What I learned about the criminals and predators in Bogota, Beirut, Baghdad, etc...has surely helped me out in US of A.

    And yes you are correct: Thank goodness for trainers like John Murphy at FPF Training.
    Great post. I've trained with you and Murphy. I recommend both. I just finished mildly cussing a coworker who wanted to buy a damn flashlight instead of taking your one day class. It is so frustrating to get people out of buying things over training.

    Anyway, I'm trying to send him your way.
    #RESIST

  3. #33
    Site Supporter rob_s's Avatar
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    Interesting post(s).

    I don't know that any of this is really that "current" in terms of "events". It's been going on for at least the last three years, maybe 5, and probably longer than that.

    I got into training classes shortly after 9/11, so I don't have a full basis of comparison to how the industry worked prior to that, but at the same time the effects of 9/11 and the internet on the training business hadn't really been felt yet. Essentially, commercial training classes for "gunfighters" were taught by cops. If you wanted to learn from someone that had shot people, prior to 9/11, you trained with cops. Which isn't to say that there weren't military guys that had shot people, there were just far fewer of them. That meant that there were far fewer of them in training circles because there were fewer of them, they had more opportunities post-service because of reduced competition in the market, and the attraction of internet celebrity wasn't a factor at the time. Pre-celebrity-instructor it was pretty difficult to make a living teaching people how to shoot. Many supplemented the income with writing gigs, and most had other sources of income like pensions and wives. Even today, that last bit is true, but the writing income has been replaced with the trappings of celebrity such as various endorsements, collaborations, and t-shirt and video sales.

    I used to also "rant" about a lot of the same things. What I've come to realize is that it doesn't matter. Outside of a shoot-the-students class like a Yeager debacle, very little training is actually detrimental to most people taking the class. This only increases as you take additional courses, provided you're doing so with your eyes open. There is definitely a prevailing trend of people taking their first course, however ridiculous, and then having a hard time accepting instruction counter to the original no matter how much "better" the new technique may be.

    The industry as a whole is plagued with various SHTFantasies, and if you think that just because someone is paid to carry a gun they are immune then you're fooling yourself. Those teams, units, departments, etc. are also plagued with ego problems, insular thinking, silo-ism, elitism, and various other -isms that muddy the waters.

    But again, I don't think it really matters much. it may be frustrating to those that "know better", but it doesn't really matter.

  4. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    The industry as a whole is plagued with various SHTFantasies, and if you think that just because someone is paid to carry a gun they are immune then you're fooling yourself. Those teams, units, departments, etc. are also plagued with ego problems, insular thinking, silo-ism, elitism, and various other -isms that muddy the waters.
    I once had a chat with ToddG about the industry drama and whatnot. He pointed out that it's much worse in other industries because of the much larger amounts of money involved and that the firearms industry is not an anomaly. his example was the airplane industry and he made several telling points that stuck with me.

    With regards to SHTF stuff, it's annoying but it's a hook. At least these folks are considering the Constitution and getting outside. It could be worse, they could be "moderate voters" on a golf course.
    #RESIST

  5. #35
    Very Pro Dentist Chuck Haggard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LittleLebowski View Post
    Great post. I've trained with you and Murphy. I recommend both. I just finished mildly cussing a coworker who wanted to buy a damn flashlight instead of taking your one day class. It is so frustrating to get people out of buying things over training.

    Anyway, I'm trying to send him your way.
    That is one of the things that has gotten me crosswise with a lot of tactical dudes over the past year. I regularly hear "You gotta have a WML for CCW, because PID, mandatory!!!"

    Ummm, yeah, about that, no, no you don't.

    Pistol mounted lights are one of the nichiest of niche bits o' kit. Even when I was still in uniform and working 100% of my time in the dark I was "meh", when our new Chief banned WMLs for the patrol guys. My real world use for the pistol light, even as a cop, was pretty damn minimal in an urban environment. The need for a pistol light for real world CCW folks, be they off duty cops, operators, or Average Earth People (thanks Pat Rogers for the nomenclature...) is damn near zero. I'd say zero, but almost nothing in life is all or nothing, but this is damn near there.

    The issue I see is people extrapolating their context to another context where it doesn't fit. Or running with the "You gotta be ready for anything!" mindset to their gear. Yes, WMLs typically doesn't hurt anything, until the cost for the light replaces a class (as you noted LL....), or ammo, etc. that happens to be more important.
    IF you having EVERYTHING else squared away, AND you have the extra money to blow on the WML and the holster to fit your gat with the light mounted, AND the money to get a class to get trained on how to use it, then sure, CCW your happy little ass off with your WML and holster built to handle said gear.

    Average cop or CCW person does not have all those boxes checked yet.

    If we looked at real world incidents in the US and equipped accordingly we'd actually be carrying a primary revolver, a BUG snubby, a centerline carried fixed blade, OC and a handheld flashlight before we'd be carrying a semi auto pistol and/or WML. We'd also be taking a first aid, tac med and driving courses, and get a fucking gym membership, before we spent money on a WML, but that's not as much fun to talk about.
    Last edited by Chuck Haggard; 03-30-2016 at 08:47 AM.
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  6. #36
    Member VolGrad's Avatar
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    Mini rant on current events

    I spent a lot of money a few years back taking classes from the big names. I got sucked into the whole tactical experience. I sorely wish I had that time to do over again wearing jeans and a IWB holster. You all know what I'm getting at with that statement. It's how I carry. I learned a lot and became a better shooter but I could have gotten so much better had I not worried as much about being cool and performing well (using gear I don't carry). I can't afford the classes at the moment but when the money comes back and I can I will never pay top $ for another class with a high student to teacher ratio. It's BS to pay $400-500 for a class where the instructor never even learns your name over two days because he has had such little interaction.
    Last edited by VolGrad; 03-30-2016 at 08:51 AM.

  7. #37
    Site Supporter rob_s's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LittleLebowski View Post
    I once had a chat with ToddG about the industry drama and whatnot. He pointed out that it's much worse in other industries because of the much larger amounts of money involved and that the firearms industry is not an anomaly. his example was the airplane industry and he made several telling points that stuck with me.
    There are things that are the same and things that are different.

    Having recently gotten back into woodworking, I think that's an industry that has a lot of similarities as there are both professionals and hobbyists, and the manufacturers and other industry backbone companies are catering to both. The thing is, there's a much more clearly defined set of roles, as well as mutual respect than in the gun bidness. The difference being that nobody in the carpentry forums is claiming life-or-death consequences for which table saw they buy.

    Quote Originally Posted by LittleLebowski View Post
    With regards to SHTF stuff, it's annoying but it's a hook. At least these folks are considering the Constitution and getting outside. It could be worse, they could be "moderate voters" on a golf course.
    That's kind of my point.

    Haley, Yeager, whatever. Get out and shoot. Take a class. Enjoy it. That's the #1 best way to change people's minds & viewpoints both in the micro-stream of guns and the macro of politics. and other than possibly getting shot by Yeager or one of his instructors, there's very minimal risk and you're likely to only get better. Just try it with an open mind and take what works and ditch what doesn't. Snipping 0.01 off your draw stroke at a class isn't going to be the thing that saves your life on the drive home.
    Last edited by Tom_Jones; 03-30-2016 at 09:04 AM. Reason: fixed quote

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Haggard View Post
    If we looked at real world incidents in the US and equipped accordingly we'd actually be carrying a primary revolver, a BUG snubby, a centerline carried fixed blade, OC and a handheld flashlight before we'd be carrying a semi auto pistol and/or WML. We'd also be taking a first aid, tac med and driving courses, and get a fucking gym membership, before we spent money on a WML, but that's not as much fun to talk about.
    Classic! I'm sure you also meant to add some type of H2H or Shivworks class

    I hate med training but I've had to plug a few holes and apply tourniquets on lost limbs. I am VERY glad I attended tac med courses but I still hate med training. I realized the importance and I'm looking forward to John Murphy/FPF hosting more med training.

  9. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    Read your post, makes sense, but couldn't find the rant, though.
    Rant: "I do not think this means what you (I) think it means."

  10. #40
    Site Supporter rob_s's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Haggard View Post
    If we looked at real world incidents in the US and equipped accordingly we'd actually be carrying a primary revolver, a BUG snubby, a centerline carried fixed blade, OC and a handheld flashlight before we'd be carrying a semi auto pistol and/or WML. We'd also be taking a first aid, tac med and driving courses, and get a fucking gym membership, before we spent money on a WML, but that's not as much fun to talk about.
    there is so much hypocrisy in the gun world in terms of what people say, do, and *should* do, I got pretty tired pretty quickly of tilting at that particular windmill. I will, however, still point it out on a more limited, directed, basis.

    The thing is, when you really break it down, what we're talking about is Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs. If we really get right down to it, the majority of people haven't even fully met their physiological needs, yet are claiming to be addressing their safety and security needs, but in fact are trying to appease their love & belonging, self-esteem and self-actualization needs

    What I find interesting is how often, across professions and "real world" vs. "fantasy", the gun thing crosses all but the physiological. That's the thing I think that sets it apart from woodworking, aviation, cars & motorcycles, golf, etc.


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