Mini rant on current events

[TElmer2]

The whole bang your head against the wall thing referred directly to how hard it is to convince people to embrace skills and training over things. I did not phrase it as that is what you should do (get frustrated with folks choosing material goods over immaterial skills). Then I wrote about how nice it is to actually embrace skills and training and wrote the entire post as encouragement for PF members to remember that and to never grow complacent. In fact, I started out the whole post specifically addressing the PF community. If you don't remember, trying parsing it again:



I did my best not to lapse into negativity (such as you imply regarding CQBR SOPMOD Block II clones) but (again) I was addressing our community.

Only on the internet would "Always be humble, always seek to better yourself, and for the sake of our rights, and our culture, take a newbie shooting, and keep the right of self preservation alive" be taken as something negative. It's mind boggling the amount of negativity that folks can read into something. Truly, it is. I thought it was a positive post in which I reminded people not to assume that everyone has their level of knowledge and I tried to really encourage skills and training for our community. Instead, I'm apparently "forcing" people into training, carrying tourniquets everywhere I go, obsessing over what newbies do, sneering at clone builders, and so on.

So, is a list of what folks could or should recommend for newbies verboten? What would make you guys happy since even the mention of recommendations gets turned into the implication that we are wasting our time and forcing people into something they don't want to do.

Negative little back and forths like this are silly, a waste of time, and they drag you down a few levels. It's what I get for daring to suggest training and skills, though.

Just so you know...if I could show you my boobs I would.

Great post to add to SLG's. THIS is why I stay on P-F, keeping it real and I wholeheartedly agree. I often run into the "don't judge" by suggesting people seek Mike Pannone, Southnarc, and then guess what...PRACTICE what they learned in class.

1,000 likes

[Mr_White]

Instead, I'm apparently "forcing" people into training, carrying tourniquets everywhere I go

It's ok, I already forgave you for making me buy tourniquets and an ankle carrier recently. Shoulda bought toothpaste for my kid, but what fun is that? And doubly so for making me carry the tourniquet. I forgave you a lot faster for this than when you made me carry a drop wallet a long time ago.

In all seriousness, I keep almost responding to this aspect of the discussion and then I don't. Trying again now and sorry I ramble. I think there is room for a lot of different expressions of the desire to better our larger community.

There need to be people who are excited about answering new shooter questions that are being asked for the millionth time when I am not going to answer because I'm tired of that discussion after having it 50 times.

There need to be people who are thinking about TTPs for nondedicated personnel, when I am busy thinking about TTPs for myself and others who are motivated to do lots of work in an effort to be great.

There need to be people out there trying to spread the 'better word' and not be satisfied with just the current 'good'.

There need to be people interested in taking new people shooting or answering their tiring questions at length.

There need to be people mobilizing other people to write, call and email legislators.

I've done all those things. Right now, what I have time and interest in doing is continuing to try to become great, helping other people trying to become great when they are interested in that too, helping new people get a strong foundation that will serve them well in both their current daily lives and enable maximum skill development if they get REALLY interested, and participating in the internet communities I'm a part of. That's about all I feel like I can do right now. And everyone else has zero responsibility to do what I do, or do anything the way I do it.

Sometimes discussions are torpedoed by some unsaid things. Like when Darryl is talking about ideas oriented toward nondedicated personnel, but I read it as talking to me specifically. Or when I am talking about people expending a lot of effort to be really good because it's a bit of an assumption in my mind, but I don't say that and it reads to someone else like I think all the police everywhere should be doing a lot of Bill Drill practice or something.

Communities themselves also do sometimes have an explicit or implicit focus. PF is historically populated by people who want to work hard and enjoy the results (I think.) There was a moment on TPI once when one person said "How good is good enough?" (referring to the fact that each of the many subparts involved in creating a multidisciplinary tactician can be a lifetime study unto themselves) and someone else responded "I can't believe I'm reading this on TPI. When is anything ever good enough, how can you even think that way? There's no end to the journey." (Paraphrased.)

I think there's room for lots of us, with lots of motivations. I am mostly rambling but I guess if I am suggesting anything it's that I don't feel like I need to, or anyone needs to, shit on other people's area of interest if it's not what I happen to be into or intensely perceive the need for myself.

[Mjolnir]

Advantage Group host Shivworks (Craig Douglas) twice a year in the New Orleans Area.

Recuperating from an injured right shoulder otherwise I would have been there last Fall; planning on seeing you there this upcoming Fall.

[Default.mp3]

The whole bang your head against the wall thing referred directly to how hard it is to convince people to embrace skills and training over things. I did not phrase it as that is what you should do (get frustrated with folks choosing material goods over immaterial skills). Then I wrote about how nice it is to actually embrace skills and training and wrote the entire post as encouragement for PF members to remember that and to never grow complacent. In fact, I started out the whole post specifically addressing the PF community. If you don't remember, trying parsing it again:

This is not needed at this time but as PF grows (it actually does steadily grow), we must always remind ourselves never to become complacent.

I did my best not to lapse into negativity (such as you imply regarding CQBR SOPMOD Block II clones) but (again) I was addressing our community.

Only on the internet would "Always be humble, always seek to better yourself, and for the sake of our rights, and our culture, take a newbie shooting, and keep the right of self preservation alive" be taken as something negative. It's mind boggling the amount of negativity that folks can read into something. Truly, it is. I thought it was a positive post in which I reminded people not to assume that everyone has their level of knowledge and I tried to really encourage skills and training for our community. Instead, I'm apparently "forcing" people into training, carrying tourniquets everywhere I go, obsessing over what newbies do, sneering at clone builders, and so on.

So, is a list of what folks could or should recommend for newbies verboten? What would make you guys happy since even the mention of recommendations gets turned into the implication that we are wasting our time and forcing people into something they don't want to do.

Negative little back and forths like this are silly, a waste of time, and they drag you down a few levels. It's what I get for daring to suggest training and skills, though.

Well, to be fair, the tendency for people to prioritize equipment over skill is pretty much universal for anything that requires both (golf, photography, cooking, shooting, driving, gaming, etc.).

As for the part about specifically addressing the PF community, I honestly interpreted it as just a general statement rather than toward just PF, and that the growth of PF was merely a great reminder to you/us about the wider issues.

I personally (can't speak for rob_s) didn't find your post to be negative at all, but in fact a fount of positivity (despite you labeling it as a rant). I'll also note that my mention of clone builders was not meant to be demeaning in any way, but merely a rather extreme example of something with a distinct lack of utility that can still bring its owner much joy and pride of ownership (though perhaps that might speak negatively about our overall consumer driven society...), and it was an example that many of us here would have a relatively high probability of running into, given our shared interests in firearms, and such a person may very well have some kind of passing interest in self-defense, so they might have an interest in the ability to have good hand-to-hand or pistol skills.

Instead, I was merely disagreeing with the seemingly objective way you described some of the things in your post. For some people, the hardware is the endgoal in itself. The question then becomes, how many people are simply into firearms just because they think they're fucking cool, and actually aren't all that serious about self-defense (despite what they might espouse), how many people are genuinely into self-defense, and the gear aspect is merely a means, and all the people that are between those two positions? I suspect that rob_s believes that the first group is the majority of people in the so-called tactical community, and possibly even in the training community, and thus why he might believe that even gentle encouragement to maybe check out an IAJJ AAR would almost always be a waste of time and energy.

I mean, ultimately, all other things being equal, is there any statistically significant verifiable improvement in quality of life for your average civilian if they use a Safariland 7390 versus a SERPA? If they decide to join a BJJ gym rather than plunk down for that factory woodland HK91? As many posters in this thread have noted, people get caught up in the whole gear train and tacticool entertrainment, and none of it is really all that relevant to their everyday lives, but ultimately, how often does the fact that these people are woefully underprepared against any true violence actually affect their lives?

Really, to me, it's just something for me to help keep in perspective. This isn't to say we shouldn't straight up not give a shit, and that we should not make any attempt at prodding and/or encouraging people to take into context what they're buying/what classes they wish to attend, just that when we get all fired up and proselytizing, step back, and see how ultimately inconsequential most of this stuff is (for normal civilians, anyway), and to not be too serious about it.

[Jared]

FWIW,

A lot of times if I'm talking to someone that I know is a gun owner, I'll steer the conversation towards some of my more skill oriented activities. If their eyes glaze over and they go back to talking about their next buy or build, I know what I'm dealing with. I usually just let them go then.

On the other hand, I've had a select few ask me some deeper questions. At some point after that, I'll usually offer to drive them to the next match or go with them for a range day where we can shoot some drills and they can meet Mr shot timer. In all this time, I've had three people take me up on it, but it was very worth it for me to see that light bulb come on when they really tried skill building for the first time.

I've taken three other people that had never shot a gun before and taught them some basics. One was a rabidly anti gun girlfriend of mine (somehow we'd dated for several months without that coming up, but I was 18 at the time). I can very personally vouch for the fact that clay birds and a 20 gauge 1100 can win hearts and minds and show that we aren't all bloodthirsty killers.

In my opinion, and this is just my little opinion, shooting should be FUN. That's how it started for me. That's how I introduce people to it, whether it's a total newbie who's never held a gun before or someone with a safe full of stuff that's just been there to look at for years that's now interested in building some skill. Busting clays is fun. Shooting a passing score on The Test is fun. Taking a second off your Bill Drill is fun.

About the only thing I can't abide in our little community (not meaning p-f, just the gun owning community at large) is the mud slinging and shitting in each other's cereal. Whether it's gamers vs tactical guys, hunters vs target shooters, or whatever else it chaps my rear when folks try to shine by blowing out each other's candles. We might see all these differences, but in the end, our political enemies don't and I doubt they ever will.

Wow, I'm rambling. Sorry.

[HCM]

FWIW,
In my opinion, and this is just my little opinion, shooting should be FUN. That's how it started for me. That's how I introduce people to it, whether it's a total newbie who's never held a gun before or someone with a safe full of stuff that's just been there to look at for years that's now interested in building some skill. Busting clays is fun. Shooting a passing score on The Test is fun. Taking a second off your Bill Drill is fun.

This is great point. I carry a gun for a living as an LEO and I've taught firearms and tactics both full time and part time as part of my duties over the years. I train for "serious stuff" including taking training on my own time and my own dime but before all this I learned to shoot in sand pits and rock quarries with my Dad and my Uncles. Shooting is also my hobby and it will be my hobby when I retire. You do however need to be realistic about what is actual training and what is shooting for fun / passion of the gun.

[voodoo_man]

I cant take people who dont at least have a TQ and a mag sitting in a bag seriously...knowing what can potentially happen.

[HCM]

I cant take people who dont at least have a TQ and a mag sitting in a bag seriously...knowing what can potentially happen.

Same, other than I will substitute a pocket carry J frame for a spare mag if I'm shooting something other than a Glock. There is an bright red IFAK attached to my "everything" range bag and another IFAK and loaded Glock mags which live in my truck.

[SLG]

I cant take people who take their guns off safe before they need to shoot seriously...knowing what can potentially happen.

FIFY

[HCM]

Some truths are self evident: