Theft turns to Aggravated Robbery on video

[Chuck Haggard]

Spraying someone who is carrying a gun with OC is a bad idea but shooting them in the back until slidelock as they are walking away is supposedly a good idea? Not even close.

To clarify my position, I would NOT spray this guy with OC because I do not believe that would be safe. What I think I would do were I ever presented with that situation is to follow the guy, from a safe distance, while on the phone with 911. Reason being is that while he is walking away with the gun stuck in his pants he IS NOT a threat and you'd be hard pressed to find a judge or jury in the country that you could persuade otherwise if you "shot him till slidelock... in the back...".

You might think so, however you would be mistaken.

OCing that guy would just get you shot in retaliation, and maybe everybody else on that sidewalk if the shooter had impaired vision due to the OC working at all the way it was designed and the bad guy decided to do what many armed robbers and gang bangers do, spray-and-pray, when they decide to shoot.

As for shooting that guy, read up on Garner vs Tenn., then do some reading over at the Force Science Research Center ref human reaction time. I could easily articulate a fear for my life, a need to apprehend that suspect before he robs/shoots/kills anyone else (cop think, being a career cop and all), that he was obviously a well practice professional criminal with experience in robbing people who was willing to go to guns over what could have been a simple petty theft. Announcing or otherwise doing the "drop the gun" thing very often gets good guys shot as it gives the bad guy choice of first move.



Although, out of reflex I would have likely jammed his draw and then disarmed him or shot him repeatedly from a high 2 position, so it probably wouldn't have gotten to the point that he was walking away. Since I have actually pull off such disarms on the street during the course of Terry stops, on more than one occasion, I can speak from experience there.

[longball]

I think you should reread my last post (the one you quoted). We agree on NOT OC-ing the guy. What I wanted to convey In my first post was that it would be some funny shit to watch the guy roll around on the ground in Sabre pain. I clearly stated in my last post that I would NOT OC the guy. That said, being familiar with Tennessee vs Garner myself, I still don't believe in this case that it would be justified to shoot him in the back. Could you, (or myself for that matter) articulate a fear for your life while he was in front of you, showing the gun? Sure we could, but as he was walking away, in the manner that he was in the video...... I wouldn't chance it. To each his own though.

[ToddG]

Without suggesting I would or wouldn't, it seems like a justifiable act under Garner to stop this armed felon -- with lethal force if necessary -- whether he's actively shooting people or not. He just used the visible threat of lethal force to commit a violent robbery. It's perfectly reasonable to act under the assumption that a non-lethal attempt to apprehend him could result in your death or the death of others.

It's extremely important to understand that Garner applies to police officers and not private citizens. The entire basis of the Court's decision revolves around Fourth Amendment law which plays no part in a private citizen exercising his right to self defense.

[MDS]

FWIW, when I saw the video the first time I assumed exactly what I think I'd assume if it happened to me: that the snatcher was a distraction and the follow on thug was going to attack. Obviously it's easy to say from the comfort of my couch after seeing through to the end, but I'm pretty sure my reaction would have been to draw and shoot the second guy as soon as he showed me he was armed and before I even took time to process what exactly he might be saying in that threatening tone...

This is exactly how I feel about it... for about a second. Then I start to feel doubts about my ability. In my mind, the only point for a private citizen to train hard and achieve those good FAST scores, is to instill the confidence that makes Todd able to make this decision without thinking twice. I'm in a middle ground right now where a) I might do like Todd; b) I might do like the guy in the video; or c) I might try to do like Todd, fumble the draw, shoot an innocent bystander, and get killed in the process.

Sigh.

I'm going to go dry-fire my draw now...

[F-Trooper05]

So at what point is the use of deadly force no longer justified? When the gun-toter turns his back? When he starts walking away? When he covers up the gun with his shirt? When he's no longer in sight?

[JodyH]

So at what point is the use of deadly force no longer justified? When the gun-toter turns his back? When he starts walking away? When he covers up the gun with his shirt? When he's no longer in sight?

As a civilian... at the point you can no longer articulate why he was an immediate deadly threat to yourself or innocent third parties in the immediate vicinity.
I would have had no problem shooting him in the back as he walked away with his hand at his waistband, then articulating that he was an immediate deadly threat to the women at the next table.
YMMV... and hire a good attorney.

[Long tom coffin]

As a civilian... at the point you can no longer articulate why he was an immediate deadly threat to yourself or innocent third parties in the immediate vicinity.
I would have had no problem shooting him in the back as he walked away with his hand at his waistband, then articulating that he was an immediate deadly threat to the women at the next table.
YMMV... and hire a good attorney.

Missouri state law specifically states that deadly force is not acceptable unless the victim is in mortal fear of death or injury, or of a third party suffering from the same. I work in a law firm so I already have plenty of attorneys on tap. One of the partners, my boss, represents me in everything and his advice was "Don't say anything other than "I feared for my life" until I get there".

That said, I would have mowed that mofo down as soon as I saw a hint of a gun. If I was unable to do so prior, I would have put several rounds in him the second he turned his back on me. A foolish error on his part (turning his back) DOES NOT automatically negate the threat he presents. At any point during the turning of the back and walking down the street, he could have easily done a 180 and put a round into the fat guy. That would have been my justification.

If I was not the victim but at another table and had clear view of what was going on, I would have drawn too.