AAR: Larry Vickers Advanced Handgun Marksmanship Class, 21 MAR Bellevue, WA

[okie john]

I definitely understand the concerns about scheduling. I was concerned about it myself at first, but in this case, I got 6 hours of trigger time under the direct supervision of a master (and no risk of getting stuck with an AI) for $275. I had time to actually learn from the drills that I shot, which doesn't always happen when you move from drill to drill without a moment to think. I actually learn faster when I get a few minutes to catch my breath, make some notes, and truly understand what I've just done. I also didn't have to wait around while people asked a celebrity instructor questions that he's already answered a dozen times online or in print. My skills are a lot better as a result, and I'll be able to run more effective self-training in the future.

I see three issues with big classes:
Can the instructor safely run a course of that size? If the class is basically sound, then I believe that this becomes a function of understanding how long the class can hang, and of the instructor's ability to monitor whether they're falling apart. We shot 20 rock-solid, challenging drills, and ended just before everyone was smoked. I've been in classes that burned up 1k rounds in two days, ending with complex, high round-count drills that were basically people running around turning ammo into noise as they began to fray and become unsafe. With Larry, we were on an indoor range with limited space, so he set up three relays of eight shooters each--hardly the chorus line that some instructors run. Every time I screwed something up, he spotted it, then told me the cause and exactly how to fix it. I feel pretty sure that the other shooters got the same level of attention.
Can the instructor still put out high-quality information in a way that students understand? In this case, I believe that the information was first rate, and I thought that I improved as the class went on. More important, I got an excellent set of drills and a new understanding of how to use old drills.
Can the students come away understanding the material and able to execute it? Obviously this will vary by student and I can't speak for the others, but I feel pretty good about things.

So, yeah, there were 23 shooters in this class, but I feel like I definitely got a LOT more my money's worth. In the end, Alias can certainly keep prices where they are and continue to "overbook" classes. Or they can raise prices to keep head count low. That will turn high-quality training into a hobby for the rich rather than dissemination of life-saving skills to the cops, soldiers, and other good people who truly need it.


Okie John

[okie john]

Seemed like a great class! With all the discussions with Nyeti, interesting how these two also have similarly high accuracy standards.

Yep. I get the impression that they have a level of insight into the the actual problem that other folks lack.


Okie John

[Josh Runkle]

It's excellent that you had a positive experience.

[okie john]

It's excellent that you had a positive experience.

Thanks. I fully understand that it doesn't always go that way.


Okie John

[Dagga Boy]

Seemed like a great class! With all the discussions with Nyeti, interesting how these two also have similarly high accuracy standards.

Wayne and I have both been students of Larry's numerous times, and Wayne was an endorsed instructor before we started our own business. We use a bunch of drills from both Larry and Ken Hackathorn with full credit. As I have posted before, one of the toughest classes I ever took was with Larry early into his teaching in the private sector in a restricted class with a small number of students that was the two day Advanced marksmanship course. Having great students, a small class, and a very focused Larry was great and I learned a ton. I have also seen large classes where Larry was very limited with what he could do due to size and a bunch of students who were in way over their heads. Sounds like this class had good students and Larry could capitalize on that even with three lines.

[Wayne Dobbs]

Wayne and I have both been students of Larry's numerous times, and Wayne was an endorsed instructor before we started our own business. We use a bunch of drills from both Larry and Ken Hackathorn with full credit. As I have posted before, one of the toughest classes I ever took was with Larry early into his teaching in the private sector in a restricted class with a small number of students that was the two day Advanced marksmanship course. Having great students, a small class, and a very focused Larry was great and I learned a ton. I have also seen large classes where Larry was very limited with what he could do due to size and a bunch of students who were in way over their heads. Sounds like this class had good students and Larry could capitalize on that even with three lines.

I took his Advanced Marksmanship Course back about 2008-2009 and it was a two day course that burned us down mentally both days. We had about 12-14 students and that was a real sweet spot. Much learning occurred (to steal Pat's phrase) and it only burned into my brain how important surgical accuracy is. My field shooting and training habits took a swift upward curve after that.

Darryl and I essentially do the very same thing at the very beginning of our courses. We require stringent accuracy performance at speed on a target that reflects real world problems. We don't do what I call "No Cop Left Behind" training and never will. You have to do the hard work both as instructor and student and that's one of the ways we honor our mentors and our craft.

You can sum up all relevant, high quality defensive handgun training by stealing Larry's best saying: "Shooting a pistol is simple, but it's NOT easy"

[JohnO]

[*]We shot an abbreviated version of the Humbler. Larry said that the Humbler had been designed for people shooting match-grade 1911s at 25 yards, so if you shoot a different type of pistol, then you should alter the distance. Given the pistols and the students in our class, he felt that 18 yards was about right. We skipped the prone stages. If you drop fewer than 20 points using the Black/White/Brown scoring system, then you’re doing well. Dropping fewer than 10 points is considered excellent. If you can do this, then you should score the drill using the actual scoring rings.

That is exactly what Larry told me. I was -8 for the entire drill. When Larry asked who shot the drill in single digits I was the only one who raised their hand. Most of the folks thought Larry was asking about the last string and were quite surprised I was at -8 for the all the strings. Larry said I needed to use the scoring rings.

[MVS]

.
So, yeah, there were 23 shooters in this class, but I feel like I definitely got a LOT more my money's worth. In the end, Alias can certainly keep prices where they are and continue to "overbook" classes. Or they can raise prices to keep head count low. That will turn high-quality training into a hobby for the rich rather than dissemination of life-saving skills to the cops, soldiers, and other good people who truly need it.


Okie John

First, thanks for the review. I always like to read about classes I am considering.

Second, I have been to three Alias classes and all were overbooked. Not sure what to make of your price comment as they are already the most expensive of the around 50 classes I have taken.

[scw2]

Appreciate the honest review, and didn't mean to infer that LAV didn't teach a good class here or you got cheated out of your training dollars. Generally, I'd be pretty miffed if I paid for a class that was overbooked for profit and class size ended up being a detriment to our safety or learning, but it sounds like that wasn't an issue here. If the instructor can run a larger class safely and efficiently and I still get good value out of the training, I'd be a happy student.

[Dagga Boy]

That is exactly what Larry told me. I was -8 for the entire drill. When Larry asked who shot the drill in single digits I was the only one who raised their hand. Most of the folks thought Larry was asking about the last string and were quite surprised I was at -8 for the all the strings. Larry said I needed to use the scoring rings.

Okay, now I feel,ripped off. We did the whole Humbler at 25 yards scored on the rings.....I am still damaged. I think everyone should be damaged. I shot as good as I ever have having practiced a ton before the class and having had about a day and a half with Larry before shooting it.....and it was still horribly difficult.