US Secret Service Issues Solicitation For a New Service Rifle

[Jeep]

Many lessons from Wanat, among them training and full auto or burst capability on an M4 does not make it a replacement for an actual machine gun.

Agree on the training point--it was a frequent issue from the start with M-16's. Also agree that a fully auto capable carbine isn't a replacement for a machine gun. However, troops will substitute them for machine guns when that is all they have. One thing we have historically not been good at is supplying automatic weapons that are outside the normal TOE for fixed-defense positions. Frankly we ought to consider bringing back water cooled Brownings for that role, but we never will do it.

[Unobtanium]

If the issue with DI in high-duration full-auto is loss of lubrication, would it make sense to just opt for an NP3-coated BCG instead of opting for the piston? I expect the NP3 coating to outlast the barrel as well as being much easier to clean with a less intensive (not high-frequency full-auto) firing schedule.

I am a bit of an NP3 fanboy based on my experience with the finish on handguns in sandy, dusty environments, and I believe the finish is well suited for the AR-family BCG.

My qpq bcg rifle ran great even after all the lube burned and blew off. 1500 rounds of wolf suppressed will do that over a few days. It still cycled flawlessly unsuppressed.

[Unobtanium]

Don't get me wrong. I am not a partisan in the operating rod v. DI wars, except I personally like the lightness and simplicity of DI for semi-auto. I don't agree, however, that what happens when you are outside the performance envelope means nothing. When really bad things happen you might need for weapons to go far outside their performance envelope, and the "best" one is the one that can do it longest. The information I have seen seems to indicate that operating-rod weapons do that, but I will leave it to others to debate whether that is correct.

Have you considered that the gas operation of the m4 clears moon dust better than a Piston would, from the action?

Further...where is the piston? I mean, it's not theoretical...it exists in the physical. Typically...it's under the rail. And typically, some moving parts must be involved, I mean, if it is to cycle...

...you can close up the m4 DI operating system. It's very closed, so to speak. Shut the port door, insert a mag...

But the piston system...it lives under a rail...so if you close those moving parts off...heat is an issue in your battle of wanat style firefight. If you open the rail up...debris is then theoretically the issue...

Stoner knew what be was doing.

[breakingtime91]

Have you considered that the gas operation of the m4 clears moon dust better than a Piston would, from the action?

Further...where is the piston? I mean, it's not theoretical...it exists in the physical. Typically...it's under the rail. And typically, some moving parts must be involved, I mean, if it is to cycle...

...you can close up the m4 DI operating system. It's very closed, so to speak. Shut the port door, insert a mag...

But the piston system...it lives under a rail...so if you close those moving parts off...heat is an issue in your battle of wanat style firefight. If you open the rail up...debris is then theoretically the issue...

Stoner knew what be was doing.

I was of the mind that piston was the way to go. Then we used IARs in country and saw that piston, in fact, needs the same or more maintenance then our m4s.. Kind of made me appreciate the direct gas set up and the weight.

[Beat Trash]

I was of the mind that piston was the way to go. Then we used IARs in country and saw that piston, in fact, needs the same or more maintenance then our m4s.. Kind of made me appreciate the direct gas set up and the weight.

Very interesting, and very enlightening. Thanks for the input.

My Agency's SWAAT unit bought a dozen SIG SBR's with a piston, a huge factory quad rail and Surefire suppressors. They quickly became so unpopular that they re issued to the "New Guys". I handled one when they first showed up and were being inventoried and inspected by the armors. For an SBR they felt like a brick in the hand.

[farscott]

My qpq bcg rifle ran great even after all the lube burned and blew off. 1500 rounds of wolf suppressed will do that over a few days. It still cycled flawlessly unsuppressed.

Based on my experience with Melonite QPQ, I have no doubts about that. My only concern with the process is that the temps needed for each quench can cause dimensional changes, but Carpenter 158 is ideal for use with Melonite QPQ due to its deformation of only 0.001" per linear inch of material. If the process QC can stay stable, Melonite QPQ is an outstanding finish for an AR/M4 BCG.

[Jeep]

Have you considered that the gas operation of the m4 clears moon dust better than a Piston would, from the action?

Further...where is the piston? I mean, it's not theoretical...it exists in the physical. Typically...it's under the rail. And typically, some moving parts must be involved, I mean, if it is to cycle...

...you can close up the m4 DI operating system. It's very closed, so to speak. Shut the port door, insert a mag...

But the piston system...it lives under a rail...so if you close those moving parts off...heat is an issue in your battle of wanat style firefight. If you open the rail up...debris is then theoretically the issue...

Stoner knew what be was doing.

You are over-reading what I said. I am not, and never have been, opposed to the DI system. I am merely saying that if you think your equipment is going to be used in extended full auto operations, then you might consider an operating rod system.

Everything is a trade off, of course, and it also depends on the equipment of the day, which changes over time. Since this is for the Secret Service, moon dust might not be an issue (and, of course, extended firefights might not be an issue either).

Stoner and his team designed a rifle for semi-auto use, with occasional full auto. It works very well for that. It might well be that with new surfaces for the BCG it can work well for rapid and extended full auto use. I don't know. And I agree that operating rods can and do have their problems. But I've carried an M-14 for more than a few miles, including the E3 variety that was designed for full auto use (which it was decent at), so I know operating rods can work as well.

The question of which is better at this moment seems to me is one that should be settled by testing, rather than theory. For example, do the current operating rods pick up and jam from too much debris? Let's test them. Do new BCG materials mean that DI weapons will continue to operate far longer under extreme heat? Let's test that too.

If I were the secret service and I were concerned about those issues, that is what I'd do.

[breakingtime91]

Very interesting, and very enlightening. Thanks for the input.

My Agency's SWAAT unit bought a dozen SIG SBR's with a piston, a huge factory quad rail and Surefire suppressors. They quickly became so unpopular that they re issued to the "New Guys". I handled one when they first showed up and were being inventoried and inspected by the armors. For an SBR they felt like a brick in the hand.

ya.. I am not saying that they dont run but they need just as good of magazines, lube, and cleaning as M4s do, so ya.

[HCM]

http://soldiersystems.net/2017/04/11...r-new-carbine/

US Secret Service Issues Pre-solicitation For New Carbine

This week, the Department of Homeland Security’s United States Secret Service issued a pre-solicitation for a new rifle in 5.56x45mm. There are no set asides and they anticipate an open bid process with a contract award for a five year IDIQ.

The United States Secret Service has a requirement for 5.56 x 45mm rifle, equipped with full- and semi-automatic firing capability. USSS seeks to establish a single-award Indefinite-Delivery, Indefinite-Quantity (IDIQ) contract vehicle for a period of five (5) years. The Draft Statement of Requirements is attached as reference for potential offerors and is subject to change at the time of solicitation posting. This Presolicitation notice is associated with a Request for Information notice posted March 11, 2016. The anticipated award will be made in Fiscal Year 2018.

The weapon itself is pretty straight forward. They want an ambidextrois carbine. Interestingly, they will only accept Magpul PMAGs as magazines. Additionally, testing will be conducted while wearing Mechanix Wear Vent gloves.

Sounds like they want an Ambi bpvesuin of their current SR16 11.5" guns.

[Beat Trash]

This will be interesting to see who wins this contract.