Significant Case on Rule 2, 3, 4

[PD Sgt.]

We have had several instances with a tactical unit officer (full time tac unit) NDing. One, a slung but not safed carbine discharged when the officer went hands on with a subject. Fortunately no one was struck. Another officer nearly ventilated a range officer behind the firing line with a weapon he believed clear. A third shot another team member on approach to a structure. The team member struck survived but had to undergo several surgeries.

I am not on any of these units, and I am not in a position to tell them how they should run their units. The really galling thing is that all the officers kept their positions on their respective teams.

[TC215]

We have had several instances with a tactical unit officer (full time tac unit) NDing. One, a slung but not safed carbine discharged when the officer went hands on with a subject. Fortunately no one was struck. Another officer nearly ventilated a range officer behind the firing line with a weapon he believed clear. A third shot another team member on approach to a structure. The team member struck survived but had to undergo several surgeries.

I am not on any of these units, and I am not in a position to tell them how they should run their units. The really galling thing is that all the officers kept their positions on their respective teams.

A neighboring agency's team had one a few years ago (actually generally a squared away team). Officer had his AR slung with the safety off. The team was coming out of a house after a search warrant, and when the officer was coming down the steps, something on his vest got in the trigger guard, and put a round into one of the stairs. It was a miracle no one was hurt.

From what I understand, when the nylon ninjas ND in the projects, it gets a lot of peoples' attention.

[Chuck Haggard]

The only time I've heard it preached to run a long gun with the safety off is with the MP-5, because most people have to adjust their hands/grip to get to the selector switch. I think the NTOA to this day recommends running them with the safety off. I have big hands/long fingers, and run mine with the safety on.

I don't know anyone personally that teaches to run carbines with the safety off.

I know people who run MP5s safety on, but the safety on the MP5 is tough for many people to reach, yet another reason why using MP5s has been a bad idea since the 1980s.


Locally a friend of mine shot a compliant suspect with an ND during an arrest, because he couldn't be bothered to run his safety on. The only reason he didn't get his ass sued off was the bad guy in that case was such a complete and utter douchebag that the jury refused to give him a dime.
The KBI team had a dude do a seven round full auto ND during an operation due to gear getting into the trigger guard while the switch was obviously set to "Happy".

[TC215]

I know people who run MP5s safety on, but the safety on the MP5 is tough for many people to reach, yet another reason why using MP5s has been a bad idea since the 1980s.


Locally a friend of mine shot a compliant suspect with an ND during an arrest, because he couldn't be bothered to run his safety on. The only reason he didn't get his ass sued off was the bad guy in that case was such a complete and utter douchebag that the jury refused to give him a dime.
The KBI team had a dude do a seven round full auto ND during an operation due to gear getting into the trigger guard while the switch was obviously set to "Happy".

I'm getting off-topic, but I'm about the only person on our team that still uses an MP every now and then. Like everyone else, we've used AR's as primaries for years, but I will sometimes run the MP on a call-out, depending on the situation. I just like the thing and shoot it well.

[Stephanie B]

I'm no longer local, but I believe that all the other lawsuits have been dismissed or decided in the city/department's favor. This suit against the individual officer is all that remains.

I don't know about that. The caption has the officer being sued both personally and in his official capacity. That would seem to suggest that the City of Framingham is indeed on the hook for this.

[psalms144.1]

I can't possibly echo strongly enough the sentiments that anyone running "off safe" with an AR style rifle is asking for an ND. The AR safety is very easy and intuitive to switch off. I'll add that one of the reasons why the Mk16's safety mimics the M4s, despite NSW wanting a 45/45 throw (safe-semi-full) is because the other services felt it would be too easy to "overshoot" semi and throw from safe to full during surprise engagements. Which, defacto, indicates that most of our special operators are, indeed, running their carbines on safe UNTIL they've made the conscious decision to fire. What a concept...

I'm also still running an MP5, because my agency still has not switched automatic-weapons "handlers" to M4s across the board yet. I agree the MP5's safety is a royal PITA, but I still run it on safe all the time. I've adapted my grip to work the safety - suboptimal, for sure, but MUCH better than putting a bullet into someone who doesn't need one.

[Kevin B.]

My impression is that many organization's carbine training programs/SOPs are heavily influenced by the MP-5.

A little bit of discipline goes a long way. I have always run the safety on the MP-5, to include the H&K MP-5 Operator's Course. A bit of a pain, but a non-issue.

[Hambo]

I agree the MP5's safety is a royal PITA, but I still run it on safe all the time. I've adapted my grip to work the safety - suboptimal, for sure, but MUCH better than putting a bullet into someone who doesn't need one.

I loved shooting the MP5s but I don't think the selector was designed for human hands. The best way I found to make it work for me was to keep my thumb on the right side of the grip and work the switch from there.

The safety on an AR/M4 is so easy to manipulate that it should be on unless you're shooting.

[psalms144.1]

The best way I found to make it work for me was to keep my thumb on the right side of the grip and work the switch from there.

PRECISELY the technique I use. Not optimal for anything, but it works.

[Chuck Haggard]

Part of the problem with the continued cult of the MP5 is so many people in the US go to Phil Singleton's training, and he screams at people who run the safety, because SAS or whatever.