snub load

[Moonshot]

There have been some great revolver threads going on lately over in the Revolver Forum, particularly regarding snubs. This got me thinking (and for the sake of this post, I will define a snub as a 5 shot .38 (possibly .357 mag) with a barrel length ranging from 1 7/8” to 2 1/4”.

Ultra-light J-frames are easy to pocket carry and you almost forget they are there.

Air-weights are almost as effortless to carry and handle most .38s very well (although some heavy +Ps aren’t exactly fun to shoot, and extended range sessions can be a problem).

Steel J-frames and the SP101 make shooting even heavy +P rounds easy, and magnums at least tolerable (although I have shot magnums out of a 2” SP101 and it was not fun, and I have decided to not shoot magnums out of any snub). These steel snubs are also a better platform for use as a high round count range or training gun, and if carried OWB or IWB in a proper holster and with a proper belt, the extra weight really goes unnoticed.

For these reasons, I have a 642 I sometimes carry as a bug, another identical 642 as a dedicated range gun, a nice .38 only 640 (my wife’s gun) and I am looking for either a 640-1 / 640 Pro no lock or DAO SP101 for range / training use and for possible IWB carry to replace my 9mm should physical condition or injury make it difficult to manipulate a semi-auto, or if new laws render carrying any semi-auto no longer viable.

Here is my question...

No matter what frame is carried (ultra-light, air-weight, steel), no matter how shootable it is with your chosen load (and again, for purposes of this discussion, that means no magnums), at the end of the day it still only has a 2” barrel (+-). Recoil-absorbing weight and better sights may make shot placement easier, but it’s barrel length that seems to play the biggest role in bullet performance once that bullet hits the target.

Now, if it is true that...

A 2” barrel will not reliably allow a HP, even at +P velocity, to expand (this includes all lead bullets and those designed for short barrels), and if a HP that fails to expand causes less wounding than a WC, and if a 148gr WC provides sufficient penetration, relatively low recoil and very good accuracy (particularly with follow up shots), would it not make more sense to load up your carry snub (even a magnum-capable steel snub) with WCs?

If I were talking about a 4” barrel I would not be asking this question. Even a 3” barrel may provide sufficient velocity for reliable HP expansion through heavy clothing (although even 3” may not provide enough of a velocity boost), but if limited to a 2” barrel (for whatever reasons), would not a WC make a better carry round over a harder kicking +P HP that likely will not expand?

[Wheeler]

I carry the old FBI, 158 grain LSWCHP that runs about 850 fps. I prefer to work on shot placement and hope the bullet expands rather than depend on expansion to settle whatever problem has come along that has forced me into a situation that I need to resolve with a gun.

The 147 grain HBWC's are an excellent alternative as well.

[Totem Polar]

Not to immediately spin this off in some random direction, but: for me, sights are more important than weight. I swear on a stack of Lovecraft books, if S&W ever did the right thing and put out a no-lock "442 pro" with the 640p sights on it, I'd buy one every other month for an entire academic calendar year.

Loads?
Remington's relatively soft FBI loading.
Or GDHP short
Or BB 150 full WC

JMO. Darryl or Wayne or Chuck can provide a real opinion.

[Sigfan26]

Mine is sitting in the bathroom loaded with Remington FBI loads.

[valian]

A search will reveal a lot of information about snub loads from Doc Roberts in this forum. The sticky above for 380 vs 38 spl. has quite a bit in itself.

It is not true that all modern HPs fail to expand reliably at snub velocities. Dr. Roberts testing shows that the Speer 135gr SB 38 loads and the Corbon 110gr DPX loads do reliably expand and importantly also will pentetrate sufficiently to feel confident carrying those loads and Doc also mentions that the Winchester bonded 130gr load also does well from snub length barrels.

That stated, many of us carry the full wadcutter loads in their lightweight snubs because the wadcutter still cuts a better wound than round nose bullets and penetrates well beyond the minimum 12 inches (about 14 inches if I recall correctly) with very low recoil for faster follow-up shots. Doc himself has stated that he carries the wadcutters in his lightweight snub carried as a BUG.

[Moonshot]

I switched from 135gr SBGDs to 148gr WCs in my airweight for the following reasons...

1) Easier for me to hit with accurately and rapidly when using my non-dominant hand only
2) Easier for my wife or daughters to use, should I give the j-frame to one of them in an emergency
3) Reports of the SBGDs failing to open consistantly from a sub-2" barrel
4) Data from DocGKR and others stating that a HP that fails to expand offers less wounding than a WC

I've never been a huge fan of the CD or the DPX in my airweight, in part due to low grain weight and in part due to still being a +P (see 1 and 2 above). I have always liked the FBI load (when I could get it), but the same issues (1,2,3 & 4) apply with this load.

I am not saying one shouldn't load up the heavier snubs with a +P HP, but if the WC is a good defensive round for an airweight, why would it not be equally good in a heavier snub? Better sights and more recoil damping weight should help in shot placement of a light kicking WC even more than in a heavier kicking +P, and if a round has spotty expansion from a 1 7/8" barrel, I am skeptical of it having measurably better performance from a 2 1/8" or 2 1/4" barrel.

I do plan on picking up one of the heavier snubs, for training and possibly for carry. I have read the stickies, and I have read the frequent posts. I understand the SBGD, CD, DPX and some others have been recommended, but none of these have performed well for me in my airweight (see 1 & 2), but may perform just fine in a heavier snub.

I was simply wondering if the "iffy" nature of HP expansion from a sub-2" barrel still made them a better option, or if it made more sense to stick with the same load in both the airweight and the steel snub.

If I end up with a 3" snub I'll likely load it up with either the SBGD or the FBI load, but I'm just not sure about a 2" snub.

[LSP552]

My carry 642/442 have Remington wadcutters in the cylinders. They are controllable, shoot to POA/POI, and poke a good hole. That's about all you can ask for from a 2" .38 special.

[Chuck Haggard]

Funny, we talked about this sort of thing at length in my snubby revolver blocks at the Tac Conference over the past weekend.

FWIW, I'm carrying Remington WCs in my 642s

[warpedcamshaft]

148 Grain HBWC in the cylinders (Precision Delta New Manufactured at the moment).
110 Grain +P DPX or Critical Defense in Speed Strips/Speed Loaders

With all 3 of these loads my POI is within an inch or two at 25 yards.

[Chuck Haggard]

I was very disappointed in the lack of penetration exhibited by the new DPX in a test shot over the past weekend. Massive expansion, but the bullet only went 7" in clear gel.