Best summation of vehicle fighting I've seen yet.

[43Under]

There is some valid reasons for the temple index in a car, and there are are places on the vehicle that are cover, especially for handguns and 5.56. I teach things a bit different, but there are some things taught by others that have been a result of other folks valid experiences. In the case of the cross chest versus the temple index...I find the temple index more useful for some vehicle activities. Keep in mind that real working LE folks spend most of their careers deploying from essentially a domestic passenger car. Not helicopters,tanks, apc's, hmmv's, mraps, boats, submarines, parachute, or fast ropes. It is actually a subject they are fairly well versed in and should not be discounted based on their resume not being tier 1 enough.

I'm not going to disagree, as I am neither Tier 1 nor LE nor anything else of anything.

One thing I can share is that, from Mike's description, it seemed like MOST, though not all, of what he shared and has developed into this class came not from his time in the Marines or in "America's premier special mission unit", but doing PSD work out of soft-skinned vehicles in what was probably the most dangerous place on Earth at that time.

All of these guys have their opinions, and it's not my place to say that Mike was "right" in anything that he said, really. But I will say that he does a great job of explaining how to do something and the why of it (as well as the why not of other techniques). That was the second class I took with Mike, having taken Covert Carry a year before. If you've never trained with Mike, well, you should. He really is very good.

[Dagga Boy]

I haven't trained with him, but I know he is very good. By the same token...so is William Petty. They both have their reasons and the key is to find the nuggets in all of it. I spent a ton of my life working from a vehicle with a variety of problems every single night. I have spent a ton of time learning from the folks who do exceptionally high risk vehicle stuff 365 days a year in the US and I use and teach their protocols....and was still able to find two particular holes that the temple index filled. Luckily, instead of totally discounting the temple index because it is stupid in many applications it is being used in, I sat with Will over all you can eat Sushi and got the entire context and the problems they were encountering training regular cops with some of this stuff. I have a different solution to the seatbelt than Will or Mike, but the Temple index is very good for a driver trying to work the support side of the vehicle without muzzling your passengers. Being my truck currently has a couple 14 year old girls in the front and rear passenger seats a good portion of the time, and those are two I would never want to muzzle, it makes some good sense to be open to learning something new as I now have a solution for that problem. Now....this actually falls in line with Mike and treating it as working some difficult terrain with friendly forces between you and the enemy. At this point just finding a means to engage without violating any of the four basic safety rules is what is important.

[Sigfan26]

Some things to keep in mind about Will Petty: He is super humble. Mr. Panone has NEVER attended Will's course, and (having taken Will's course twice), I can say that Mr. Panone is citing much of the curriculum out of context. When the information is applied in context, what Will teaches makes perfect sense.

[Failure2Stop]

There are absolutely phenomenal personalities at opposition in every arena. We are all a cumulative effect of our individual experiences. We live in a world of variability. Unless we ourselves are the point of contention, we have no sound reason to ignore proven information even if it conflicts with our individual perception of reality.

There are even folks that have won gunfights using the weaver.

[Dagga Boy]

There are even a whole bunch of folks that have won gunfights using the weaver, and some even used Harries with a flashlight.

FIFY....

[Dagga Boy]

Some things to keep in mind about Will Petty: He is super humble. Mr. Panone has NEVER attended Will's course, and (having taken Will's course twice), I can say that Mr. Panone is citing much of the curriculum out of context. When the information is applied in context, what Will teaches makes perfect sense.

I was in the same boat when I saw how other folks were taking things from Will's classes and morphing them into "the new thing"...which I thought was totally stupid. Luckily, I both know and like Will and was able to call and ask to do lunch to discuss it. Once the context was laid out...all was well. Same thing with how many folks are quoting P-Macs take on safety. I took a class from Pat specifically to hear him deliver the lecture, and then to ask him some questions and I had zero issues. Lord knows SUL has been an abortion compared to what Max Joseph actually taught, and most "Weaver" is not what made Jack Weaver successful. You often need to go to the source, or use actual source materials like books written by the actual advocate of some techniques, tactics or procedures.

[Sigfan26]

I was in the same boat when I saw how other folks were taking things from Will's classes and morphing them into "the new thing"...which I thought was totally stupid. Luckily, I both know and like Will and was able to call and ask to do lunch to discuss it. Once the context was laid out...all was well. Same thing with how many folks are quoting P-Macs take on safety. I took a class from Pat specifically to hear him deliver the lecture, and then to ask him some questions and I had zero issues. Lord knows SUL has been an abortion compared to what Max Joseph actually taught, and most "Weaver" is not what made Jack Weaver successful. You often need to go to the source, or use actual source materials like books written by the actual advocate of some techniques, tactics or procedures.

Not to mention, Will has a VCQB digital download instructional video with Firelance Media.

[Chuck Haggard]

Yes, this this very true and I do my best to explain to everyone and anyone who will listen that leaving the patrol vehicle is perfectly acceptable and should be done.

"Cars are death traps" I repeat every chance I get.

Even in a military context GingTFO is often a wise move.

When I was in a scout platoon and we were running M113s for vehicles we pretty much knew they were Swiss cheese if 7.62 AP rounds or anything bigger was incoming. My platoon SGT was a Vietnam era guy, and his strong advice was to "un-ass the track!" with a quickness.

[voodoo_man]

Even in a military context GingTFO is often a wise move.

When I was in a scout platoon and we were running M113s for vehicles we pretty much knew they were Swiss cheese if 7.62 AP rounds or anything bigger was incoming. My platoon SGT was a Vietnam era guy, and his strong advice was to "un-ass the track!" with a quickness.

I've seen too many officers hurt, shot and killed while sitting in their vehicles. Its a very frustrating situation when the training is available but people refuse to listen.

[Default.mp3]

I was in the same boat when I saw how other folks were taking things from Will's classes and morphing them into "the new thing"...which I thought was totally stupid. Luckily, I both know and like Will and was able to call and ask to do lunch to discuss it. Once the context was laid out...all was well.

Well, wouldn't you know, when people talk things through, they often find that they have more in common than different.