will_1400 on MMA

[will_1400]

There are MMA promotions where spine attacks like that are legal?

In general, I find UFC (and pro MMA in general) has jumped the shark into professional wrestling territory. McGregor is silly, though I do like how he handled Mayweather.

That rant was off topic and stems from a continual pet peeve of mine in the MMA community.

To put it bluntly, the majority of defenses I have used routinely and almost without fail against grapplers (such as taking advantage of the huge and blatant openings they leave when they shoot in and expose the back to elbows and hammer fists to the spine) are illegal in MMA. I don't fault the sport in this as having someone who has the striking power to break multiple patio bricks without using spacers (which forces the person to have the power to get through that thickness of resistance) having carte blanche to unleash that kind of strike would cripple or even kill competitors. But less lethal techniques like finger and wrist locks are banned as well which forces strikers to grapple in a manner more consistent with wrestling than, for example, aikido or a similar arts.

MMA is an entertaining sport and I'm glad men like Lyoto Machida and others of his ilk show that karate is a very valid art, but for someone who is trained in the more effective (and ironically more traditional methods of the art) we have to hold back. Speaking from personal experience, I was told I was forbidden from ever using my defenses against grapplers not only for safety but for reasons like "it's illegal per the rules" at an MMA gym I trained at in lieu of a karate dojo to expand my knowledge. The striking coach (a hardcore Muai Thai guy) even told me my karate strikes were "useless", even as I used said techniques to stun and knock out sparring partners in full-contact sparring.

I'm going on a tangent here, but as much as I like how MMA has shown that no one style is the greatest to an uninterested observer, the more I see gyms that focus on BJJ and Muay Thai which I grant are very good for becoming dangerous in a hurry (and I often send people who need that kind of skill quickly to good MMA gyms), but the sporting aspect is so focused on that street "dirty tactics" are never taught and most of the training is in winning belts/trophies rather than being able to handle aggressors on the street. While MMA can be and has been effective in that, I've personally seen far too many coaches advocate the double-leg takedown as a defense against a knife assault which is a very easy way to get killed (not to mention going to ground in the street is a bad idea if you have a choice in the matter as going to ground kills your mobility and opens you up to attacks from the aggressor's back). There are other issues I have with MMA as it's taught by most places but I won't delve further as I'm way the hell off topic.

I apologize for the rant, but I wanted to explain my words in an earlier post and give said words context.

[hufnagel]

That rant was off topic and stems from a continual pet peeve of mine in the MMA community.

To put it bluntly, the majority of defenses I have used routinely and almost without fail against grapplers (such as taking advantage of the huge and blatant openings they leave when they shoot in and expose the back to elbows and hammer fists to the spine) are illegal in MMA. I don't fault the sport in this as having someone who has the striking power to break multiple patio bricks without using spacers (which forces the person to have the power to get through that thickness of resistance) having carte blanche to unleash that kind of strike would cripple or even kill competitors. But less lethal techniques like finger and wrist locks are banned as well which forces strikers to grapple in a manner more consistent with wrestling than, for example, aikido or a similar arts.

MMA is an entertaining sport and I'm glad men like Lyoto Machida and others of his ilk show that karate is a very valid art, but for someone who is trained in the more effective (and ironically more traditional methods of the art) we have to hold back. Speaking from personal experience, I was told I was forbidden from ever using my defenses against grapplers not only for safety but for reasons like "it's illegal per the rules" at an MMA gym I trained at in lieu of a karate dojo to expand my knowledge. The striking coach (a hardcore Muai Thai guy) even told me my karate strikes were "useless", even as I used said techniques to stun and knock out sparring partners in full-contact sparring.

I'm going on a tangent here, but as much as I like how MMA has shown that no one style is the greatest to an uninterested observer, the more I see gyms that focus on BJJ and Muay Thai which I grant are very good for becoming dangerous in a hurry (and I often send people who need that kind of skill quickly to good MMA gyms), but the sporting aspect is so focused on that street "dirty tactics" are never taught and most of the training is in winning belts/trophies rather than being able to handle aggressors on the street. While MMA can be and has been effective in that, I've personally seen far too many coaches advocate the double-leg takedown as a defense against a knife assault which is a very easy way to get killed (not to mention going to ground in the street is a bad idea if you have a choice in the matter as going to ground kills your mobility and opens you up to attacks from the aggressor's back). There are other issues I have with MMA as it's taught by most places but I won't delve further as I'm way the hell off topic.

I apologize for the rant, but I wanted to explain my words in an earlier post and give said words context.

OT maybe, but insightful and eye opening definitely. Would the Ruling Powers here object to this being spun off for discussion as it's own romper room thread? I know I found the above to be VERY interesting and would love to see it expanded on.

[LittleLebowski]

OT maybe, but insightful and eye opening definitely. Would the Ruling Powers here object to this being spun off for discussion as it's own romper room thread? I know I found the above to be VERY interesting and would love to see it expanded on.

Next time, just hit "Report Post" with your request and DONE

[Robinson]

Well, MMA is a sport after all and as such it must have rules. Pro MMA fighters are some of the best fighters in the world, but they focus their training on defeating an opponent in the ring. They are also some tough people who are in top physical condition. But MMA is no more the "ultimate martial art" than any other.

And yes, as a traditional Okinawan karate practitioner I think some traditional arts have been given a bad rap. On the other hand, many of the McDojos teaching feel-good crap have led to that.

[45dotACP]

I'd be interested to see Cecil Burch, Craig Douglas or Paul Sharp chime in, but I think a lot of why Muay Thai, Kyokushin, and even just plain ol boxing has done well in MMA boils down to getting do some well thought out full contact sparring/tournaments.

As mentioned, typically a solid MMA coach is a good way to get dangerous in a hurry, but let's face it, a 45 year old single mom is probably less enthusiastic about paying a gym where she gets punched in the face on the reg than she is about taking a 2,000 round pistol class and if you want to develop a defensive skillset for unarmed and armed encounters, you need practice and pressure testing.

I'm from a TMA background and was told all sorts of stories about the traditional tough guys I wouldn't want to fight, like Masatatsu Oyama, or Wong Fei Hung and while embellished a good deal, I suspect traditional martial arts have turned out some tough, athletic, savvy fighters, but the thing is, full contact sparring and some things you can develop doing it, probably aren't covered under the insurance policies of Strip Mall Dojos and YMCAs...so if you find a dojo that has those types of sensei, they probably teach the class right before the MMA class

Also, my tangent...when I hear people mention that their secret squirrel techniques are too deadly or illegal for competition, I think of how badly it would suck to be head butted, eye gouged, nut kicked, neck cranked or given a rolling twisting kneebar by Bas Rutten.

I seem to recall a story he told where a person told him that "In a real fight" if he sunk in a rear naked choke, they'd poke his eye and escape, so he agreed to test their,theory and before they started, with his arm around their neck, he whispered in their ear "If you touch my eye, and I'll break your fucking neck."

So while yes, a lot of "dirty" techniques aren't taught in sport fighting, it's foolish to assume an experienced, athletic fighter in all their years of experience learning to fight, hasn't heard of them, or even developed a strategy or two of their own for their use and countering their use in a "street fight"

Sent from my VS876 using Tapatalk

[hufnagel]

Next time, just hit "Report Post" with your request and DONE

honestly, wasn't aware that was the way to get it done. Thanks, dude.

[Chance]

Our kung fu is the true kung fu, and their kung fu will get you KILLED ON THE STREET!!1!



Pick something. Train hard. Stop whining.

[will_1400]

I know I'm necroposting and that my opinion on MMA isn't popular here, but I'd like to keep this open.

For the record, I am a traditionally trained martial artist in karate so this will color how I see things. The views I express are in the vein of how I see things having grown up scrapping as a self-taught schoolyard brawler (I was a nerdy bully magnet and learned to fight the hard way).

For learning the basics of fighting, I actually advise nearly anyone who asks me to find a good boxing/wrestling/MMA gym. The way I was trained takes about eight months to become proficient enough to handle a random street aggressor if the situation goes hands-on but a good gym like I mentioned before can get someone proficient in two months on average. And the simple fact is that it's easier to find a good boxing gym than it is a traditional karate school who knows what they're doing.

That said, I do not personally like the concept of wrestling someone to the ground and trying to lock in a submission. Personal experience has taught me that being on the ground is not a good thing and going there on purpose for an extended period is, to me, a good way to get curb stomped by the other guy's backup. To me, staying mobile is key since I can disengage and run away at will which is hard to do when grappling for a submission hold.

Another thing I have come across is the assumption that as long as the fight is witnessed and you end up tapping the other guy out, you're good. That is very dangerous thinking in that wrestling around like that (or trading blows in stand up) can, and usually does, constitute a duel in which both parties are mutual combatants and thus opens one up to legal issues. In my personal experience, a LOT of the MMA types I've come across have a chip on their shoulder and act like they gotta prove they're "the man" on top of thinking that their style is the be all, end all of fighting.

Now, I am an unashamed karate student and I know where I'm strong and where I'm weak and I do study wrestling and Brazilian Jiututsu to help close up holes in my fighting abilities, but my philosophy is akin to the following. One day, Tatsuo Shimabuku (the founder of my style of karate) was drinking with his students when one of them asked him which fighting art was the best. He simply gestured to the various bottles of boozes and said "all are best". The implication being that every fighting art worth a damn has something to offer.