Why aren't Serpa and cheap knock offs of Serpas banned by USPSA?

[nwhpfan]

Interested in responses, pro and con. I'm seeing a lot of new shooters wearing them as their first holster.

They are very rare, if not non existent in my area. I RO and I've been a dedicated RO/CRO at regional matches. I don't think at a Section or State Match I've ever seen one.

At a local match, I've seen a few. Maybe 4-5 times in the last few years.

Some people come out to a match just to see what it's all about. Some of those people might continue, some are one and done. I can't recall seeing anyone that is a semi-regular or regular competitor that uses one. For the game, a retention holsters is not ideal.

As a safety issue. Sure, I think anyone can point out the safety concerns. For USPSA 1, they have a rule that says they won't dictate what type of holster to use but they can disallow a holster that is unsafe. Usually that has been applied to things that aren't even holster or some version of cloth and string. Again, for the first time person that just showed up. As for Serpa....I just don't think it's on their radar. They are so uncommon and maybe because nobody has shot themselves in a match.

[Cowtown44]

They are very rare, if not non existent in my area. I RO and I've been a dedicated RO/CRO at regional matches. I don't think at a Section or State Match I've ever seen one.

At a local match, I've seen a few. Maybe 4-5 times in the last few years.

Some people come out to a match just to see what it's all about. Some of those people might continue, some are one and done. I can't recall seeing anyone that is a semi-regular or regular competitor that uses one. For the game, a retention holsters is not ideal.

As a safety issue. Sure, I think anyone can point out the safety concerns. For USPSA 1, they have a rule that says they won't dictate what type of holster to use but they can disallow a holster that is unsafe. Usually that has been applied to things that aren't even holster or some version of cloth and string. Again, for the first time person that just showed up. As for Serpa....I just don't think it's on their radar. They are so uncommon and maybe because nobody has shot themselves in a match.

I see two or three per match, week in and week out, and that's just in the one out of five squads I RO. Without one exception, all have been used by newer shooters.

[Mr_White]

Because no one wants to alienate sponsors and newbies. Hell half the folks that use DOH style holsters have them adjusted so they sweep their leg Brownie style when holstering and drawing. Try telling someone their $100 BladeTech DOH "race" production rig is dangerous.

Try telling a seasoned tactical trainer who is in the midst of mounting his high horse about banning appendix carry from their range or classes, that out of the common belt-mounted holster types/positions, the worst self-muzzling occurs from strong side IWB and that a well-arranged AIWB rig is vastly safer. (Not saying that to disagree with what you wrote.)

[HCountyGuy]

Re: safety issues, FLETC prohibited them after 4 injury ND's I am personally aware of. It's not just a novice issue. Chris Cerino, of Top. Shot fame, also a veteran LEO and FI shot himself with a SERPA and an M&P . To his credit Chris totally owned the issue. It occurred when the gun failed to release on the initial draw. As he was pushing the button and pulling on the gun, the gun unexpectedly came free and his finger, which was still trying to push the SERPA button went right onto the trigger. Fact is if Chris Cerino can shoot himself with a SERPA. So could you, or I or any member of this board.

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2010...icer_acci.html

The Plainclothes version are very easy to break. I've personally seen several of the Plainclothes version break. The duty versions are far more durable than the standard versions however, There has been one documented case I'm aware of where a suspect tore apart a SERPA duty holster, disarming the officer and shooting him with his own gun. It occurred in Ithaca, NY in 2011.

http://cnycentral.com/news/local/man...icer?id=656202



Now that the Safariland Pro Fit GLS holsters are available in big box stores for the same pride, there is zero reason to choose the SERPA.

The point with my original post was to question how a know-nothing novice like myself, along with several others, can utilize these safely. Yet the tactical high and mighty can't seem to figure it out.

One big issue is people who press the release with the tip of the finger. They curl their finger instead of keeping it straight, as the design intends. I've had some bungled draws myself, where I failed to defeat the retention initially, but still haven't managed to wind up with my trigger finger inside the trigger guard. I've even actively tried to fuck up, and without concentrated conscious effort, I just can't replicate these issues.

I readily acknowledge there are better holsters out there, particularly that cover more of the firearm. I just disagree with the bad rep Serpas are given for operator errors. It's like villifying AIWB carry for those who go to fast, get reckless and blow their nuts off.

You can watch videos of reputable firearms instructors or shooters who say "Don't get on the trigger until the gun is aimed towards the target", yet their fingers get on the trigger an inch out of the holster.

We're using firearms folks. I thought we understood the premise of shoddy handling resulted in unwanted holes, in persons or property.

[joshs]

The point with my original post was to question how a know-nothing novice like myself, along with several others, can utilize these safely. Yet the tactical high and mighty can't seem to figure it out.

One big issue is people who press the release with the tip of the finger. They curl their finger instead of keeping it straight, as the design intends. I've had some bungled draws myself, where I failed to defeat the retention initially, but still haven't managed to wind up with my trigger finger inside the trigger guard. I've even actively tried to fuck up, and without concentrated conscious effort, I just can't replicate these issues.

I readily acknowledge there are better holsters out there, particularly that cover more of the firearm. I just disagree with the bad rep Serpas are given for operator errors. It's like villifying AIWB carry for those who go to fast, get reckless and blow their nuts off.

You can watch videos of reputable firearms instructors or shooters who say "Don't get on the trigger until the gun is aimed towards the target", yet their fingers get on the trigger an inch out of the holster.

We're using firearms folks. I thought we understood the premise of shoddy handling resulted in unwanted holes, in persons or property.

I think everyone accepts that AIWB is more dangerous, but for some the benefits outweigh the risk. This is the classic risk calculus used in negligence law. Benefits < Probability x Loss = Negligence. The question is what benefits does the SERPA offer that outweigh the increased risk? If it doesn't offer something over the competition, then all it takes is a products liability attorney who understands the market for BH to face substantial liability.

[HCM]

The point with my original post was to question how a know-nothing novice like myself, along with several others, can utilize these safely. Yet the tactical high and mighty can't seem to figure it out.

One big issue is people who press the release with the tip of the finger. They curl their finger instead of keeping it straight, as the design intends. I've had some bungled draws myself, where I failed to defeat the retention initially, but still haven't managed to wind up with my trigger finger inside the trigger guard. I've even actively tried to fuck up, and without concentrated conscious effort, I just can't replicate these issues.

I readily acknowledge there are better holsters out there, particularly that cover more of the firearm. I just disagree with the bad rep Serpas are given for operator errors. It's like villifying AIWB carry for those who go to fast, get reckless and blow their nuts off.

You can watch videos of reputable firearms instructors or shooters who say "Don't get on the trigger until the gun is aimed towards the target", yet their fingers get on the trigger an inch out of the holster.

We're using firearms folks. I thought we understood the premise of shoddy handling resulted in unwanted holes, in persons or property.

Basically, you are saying it is a training issue. I disagree and I believe it is a poor design which sets people up for failure.

In the other Serpa thread, Dr. Meyer gives a very good explanation as to why the design of the Serpa is flawed from a human factors standpoint.

My thumbnail version is guns are designed so that your finger naturally goes to the trigger when you have a proper firing grip, A principal known as Affordance. You are now using your trigger finger to activate a button on the SERPA at the same time you are acquiring a firing grip on the handgun. We train to keep our finger straight as we acquire the fire and grip and draw. In doing so, we are already going against the way the gun is designed. This is sometimes a challenge even with conventional holsters When you start using your trigger finger for other things instead of keeping it straight you are now undermining your own training.

This is on top of the durability issues and the issues with the Serpa mechanism locking up. No thank you.

[Wendell]

I think everyone accepts that AIWB is more dangerous...

AIWB is not 'more dangerous'. Have you never watched anyone use their pistol muzzle like a a prybar to open their collapsed MTAC, or their SuperTuck, or their Remora, or their 'Elite IWB'? (Forget about just the twig and berries, we're talking ascending colon, descending colon, small intestine, AND twig and berries.) That happens all the time, and nobody has banned any of them; the problem is the user, and/or the training, not the particular holster.

Try telling a seasoned tactical trainer who is in the midst of mounting his high horse about banning appendix carry from their range or classes, that out of the common belt-mounted holster types/positions, the worst self-muzzling occurs from strong side IWB and that a well-arranged AIWB rig is vastly safer. (Not saying that to disagree with what you wrote.)

x2

[GardoneVT]

The word is getting out.

Earlier at my range's RSO desk, there was a discussion about the SERPA. Turns out one of the RSOs went to an intro class at a range which banned them. He asked why, and thus is an apostle of the Church of Latter Day Serpa Users. To drive the point home to the others, I showed the video on Page 1 and demo'd my Safariland ALS drop leg.

Hearts and minds, yall.

[joshs]

AIWB is not 'more dangerous'.

Yeah, it is. The probability of shooting yourself can be mitigated with any of the common carry positions, but the loss side of the risk calculus is worse AIWB.

[olstyn]

use their pistol muzzle like a a prybar to open their collapsed MTAC, or their SuperTuck, or their Remora, or their 'Elite IWB'?

Is there something about the design of the Supertuck/MTAC/hybrid IWB holsters in general that causes people to do this? I've never had to with mine. I suppose someone more "generously proportioned" than me (6-0, 175, 31 waist) might have some anatomical features that would cause the sweat guard area of the leather portion of the holster to be pushed outward, leading to a tendency to lever the gun into it. Hybrid IWB: safe if you're skinny, dangerous if you're fat?

(None of the above should be construed to mean that I think hybrids are great; mine was my first holster purchase when I didn't have as good an understanding as I do now, and while I've since learned why other options are better, it works well enough for me that it hasn't been completely replaced yet.)

A bit more on topic for the thread, there are a few shooters local to me who regularly compete from Serpas, and while I'd rather they didn't use those holsters at all, I've found that telling people their gear sucks usually doesn't go over very well, even when you support your claim with logic and evidence. There's just too much emotional investment in gear choices, and I'd rather have fun at a match than get into an argument that's unlikely to change somebody's mind.