San Francisco Two Bullet Rule

[Coyotesfan97]

Well, I guess the good idea fairy lives in San Fransisco.....
http://worldwarwings.com/blue-angels...r=a10-blue-ban



Thinking about it....maybe strafing SF wouldn't be such a bad idea.

Snake and Nape....

[rojocorsa]

Well, I guess the good idea fairy lives in San Fransisco.....
http://worldwarwings.com/blue-angels...r=a10-blue-ban



Thinking about it....maybe strafing SF wouldn't be such a bad idea.

I'm ready and willing to bail at this point.

[Drang]

Well, I guess the good idea fairy lives in San Fransisco.....
http://worldwarwings.com/blue-angels...r=a10-blue-ban



Thinking about it....maybe strafing SF wouldn't be such a bad idea.

[Lost River]

Just to clarify.....the "two bullet" thing has ended. Qualifications are back to twice a year......but down to 37 rounds. You also get a 37 round "warmup shoot" before the qual. Sometimes 12 rounds to work immediate action drills...sometimes not. So, less than 200 rounds a year. They were big on less-lethal deployment.....but supersocks are expensive too....so now only 6 year get fired. They wanna give us net guns....not kidding. The proposed Use-of-Force order contains the terms "sanctity of life" and "preservation of life" more than anything about force. We are also almost out of our qualification targets......they won't let the range order more because they want someone to design a new target with aiming points in the hips, arms and legs instead of the center mass. They want us to actually use firearms as a sort of less-lethal pain compliance tool in this regard. "Shoot 'em in the leg! They'll get the point and give up quick!" This is coming from our administrators, who you would hope would know better. But you'd be wrong.

That right there is EXACTLY why I would never recommend the LE line of work to anyone. 15 years ago, that would be part of a satire skit about dipstick administrators who were never street cops. Now it is actually more the norm for thinking by those same people. I would say it is unbelievable, but it is sadly completely believable.

If you are shooting to wound, you are probably not justified to use deadly force in the first place, and are going to get eaten alive civilly later on. Chances are your same administrators will pull a Freddy Gray and throw you to the wolves to save the department.

Disgusting.

[Lex Luthier]

Sad to say, this is nothing new. Ambrose Bierce, who lived there for a time and knew the place intimately, said about SF in 1907:

"I'd never set foot in San Francisco. Of all the Sodoms and Gomorrahs in our modern world, it is the worst. There are not 10 righteous (and courageous) men there. It needs another quake, another whiff of fire—and—more than all else—a steady trade wind of grapeshot.... That moral penal colony of the world."

(Disclosure: I am a fourth-generation San Franciscan, and deeply saddened by how far through the looking glass my beloved hometown has traveled. I don't expect to ever desire to live there again.)

[VW.45]

Wow, 200 rounds a year!? I'm just an average CCW citizen and I shoot more than that every weekend! You guys are out there to keep order, and are constantly being castrated/leashed by retarded officials who have no clue of what is needed to end a threat!

[Josh Runkle]

Deleted. Realized this is in the LE sub forum. Sorry.

[AMC]

Wow, 200 rounds a year!? I'm just an average CCW citizen and I shoot more than that every weekend! You guys are out there to keep order, and are constantly being castrated/leashed by retarded officials who have no clue of what is needed to end a threat!

What's funny is that when I mention this to non-gun type citizens, they always assume cops shoot at least every week. They are astounded and dumbfounded when I tell them the truth.

As an update, our Police Commission voted last week to adopt the new General Order on Use-of-Force that includes "minimal force" and "proportional force" in it's language, in explicit rejection of the Graham "reasonable force" standard. Our union is opposing some of the language, but gave in on some parts as well. It will now go through the "meet and confer" process with the city as a change in working conditions. Most of it will probably be in effect by the end of the year.

Most of the people here are still in denial about what a catastrophic change this is for officer and public safety. There is no accepted definition of 'minimal force' anywhere.....not in the law, case law, POST training, etc. There will be no basis for officers to judge their actions....other than 20/20 hindsight. I fully expect some cops to get badly jammed up and lose their jobs for using what anywhere else would be 'reasonable force'. Shortly after that, most uses of force will cease in San Francisco as the majority of cops recognize that enforcing the law can get you fired. Public safety will suffer, and the public will blame the cops for 'not doing their jobs', never realizing that they voted for this.

[VW.45]

I had read a few articles about how little most police officers are offered in the way of training, so all of your info is not a surprise. It just blows me away to know that I do more training than many of the officers are offered. Not y'alls fault, so please don't think that I am ragging on the police, just the administration who keeps tightening the noose around your neck.

[John Hearne]

There is no accepted definition of 'minimal force' anywhere.....not in the law, case law, POST training, etc. There will be no basis for officers to judge their actions....other than 20/20 hindsight. I fully expect some cops to get badly jammed up and lose their jobs for using what anywhere else would be 'reasonable force'. Shortly after that, most uses of force will cease in San Francisco as the majority of cops recognize that enforcing the law can get you fired. Public safety will suffer, and the public will blame the cops for 'not doing their jobs', never realizing that they voted for this.

Exactly. I suspect the "minimal force" is the camel's nose under the tent for lawyers. Agencies generally write checks even if the force was constitutionally valid but their own policies weren't followed. Since there is no standard definition of minimal force, it is a lawyer's wet dream to argue in front of a jury.