Safe an M4 during a reload?

[GOTURBACK]

.3 sounds about right. It is basically impossible for it not to cost you some time, as both hands have to be on the weapon to safe it.

I have no problem safeing my AR or my Tavor while holding it in one hand? I can simultainously eject the magazine and safe the weapon with out any problem on both platforms while holding it with one hand also.

[BWT]

The explanations provided make sense.

I don't shoot a rifle with sling, I don't retrieve magazines from retention devices (thinking about it if you jumped out of an air plane or were taking a swim prior a magazine will not be held in place reliably), and I certainly don't run for cover (besides shooting for competition in an IDPA-esque matches) when reloading.

I read the article and the posts here; I can see the difference.

I was just thinking you had to use your trigger finger outside of the trigger guard to eject a magazine; however long it took to get another magazine in the rifle and release the bolt didn't seem to be long enough for me to be a factor. Combine that with the people do that all the time with pistols and I thought there wasn't any appreciable lack of safety in pistols. Also SLG pointed out, these same guys came from groups that used 1911's historically which also had the manual safety disabled to fire and load the weapon. I was just thinking, "maybe I'm missing something here".

Your striker fired handgun, or any other quality modern handgun, won't fire if you drop it. The long gun? Drop safe tech isn't as integrated.

The free-floating firing pin in an AR platform sometimes divots primers when chambering because of the momentum going forward. I believe the military spec ammo just uses thick/hard enough primers specifically to prevent unexpected ignition (most commercial grade primers are safe enough as well but certainly thinner). The safety selector in safe doesn't control the hammer from following the carrier or stop the firing pin from moving (for example: this guy having a runaway after releasing the trigger in a sub-gun match with an M16 http://www.uzitalk.com/forums/showth...02-Runaway-Gun).

That's why when I heard putting the gun on safe for that split second; I thought the gun can't fire when the bolt's locked in position over the hammer stopping it's movement. You're probably shooting at something that needs to be shot at and the gun is now empty; why would you not want the gun off safe if you've already made the decision to fire? But, slings, running for cover and not dropping a bolt on a chamber later on with a hammer potentially depressed, delays in getting the gun backup and running, etc. all make sense that's why I asked.

I figured there was something I simply didn't know.

Thanks for the insights.

God Bless,

Brandon

[SLG]

Can you elaborate on that?

I rarely shoot my AR, but that sounded very hard to believe for me, so I just went and pulled it out to check. Best I can tell, I'm able to manipulate the safety both on and off with just my strong hand holding it by the pistol grip. I tried a few positions: stock on shoulder, barrel pointing up and to the left, stock under arm, stock not in contact with body at all, etc. Holding my AR one handed like this is a little tough for me, but that's just because I'm weak and it's heavy. I imagine it'd be pretty easy with a lightweight SBR with something like a T1/2 on top.

I can manipulate the safety with one hand one the gun, but that's about all that can be said for that. I've never seen someone be able to remove their left hand from the rifle and safe the gun with the right, while the left goes for a mag, and accomplish the reload in anywhere close to a normal time. Please post video, as I'd like to learn a better way.

[El Cid]

For me I am engaging the safety as soon as I realize I need to reload. I'll have to run some drills later to see if my support hand is still on the rifle or already moving to the new mag.

Here is a reload done very quickly with the safety used.



Of bigger concern for me is that I want the rifle on safe if I don't have a sight picture. If I haven't trained myself to safe it during reloads, I might not safe it during some other manipulation. I admit I didn't do this before - but since Mac's class over 5 years ago I've worked hard to make sure I safe the rifle as soon as I move it from my face/sight picture. This way, no matter what I do next the rifle isn't going to put a hole in me or anyone else if it catches on gear.

Now if the gamers need that .3 seconds to win and are willing to assume the risk of a ND I suppose that's their choice. I am unwilling to sacrifice safety for speed in such a situation. But then I'm also the guy who shoots steel matches from concealment with my duty/off-duty holster.

[SLG]

For me I am engaging the safety as soon as I realize I need to reload. I'll have to run some drills later to see if my support hand is still on the rifle or already moving to the new mag.

Here is a reload done very quickly with the safety used.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=w69N5gsxvpM


Of bigger concern for me is that I want the rifle on safe if I don't have a sight picture. If I haven't trained myself to safe it during reloads, I might not safe it during some other manipulation. I admit I didn't do this before - but since Mac's class over 5 years ago I've worked hard to make sure I safe the rifle as soon as I move it from my face/sight picture. This way, no matter what I do next the rifle isn't going to put a hole in me or anyone else if it catches on gear.

Now if the gamers need that .3 seconds to win and are willing to assume the risk of a ND I suppose that's their choice. I am unwilling to sacrifice safety for speed in such a situation. But then I'm also the guy who shoots steel matches from concealment with my duty/off-duty holster.

I agree with all that you said. I'm very familiar with the video you posted, and McNamara clearly breaks his strong hand grip to manipulate the safety while his support hand is still on the gun. I do it exactly the same way.

I completely agree that a fast reload can still be accomplished, but it IS NOT POSSIBLE, to reload at exactly the same speed as if you left the safety off. I thought all shooters understood this, but if someone can show me video to prove otherwise, I'd love to see it. My m4 reload is pretty fast (stock gun, no competition add ons), but I would love to make it faster, or be able to go just as fast but safe the weapon at the same time.

[GRV]

I can manipulate the safety with one hand one the gun, but that's about all that can be said for that. I've never seen someone be able to remove their left hand from the rifle and safe the gun with the right, while the left goes for a mag, and accomplish the reload in anywhere close to a normal time. Please post video, as I'd like to learn a better way.

Well, maybe that's the thing, my reload is so slow to begin with that maybe that's the problem. I'm not into posting shooting videos public, so I've sent you a PM.

To be clear, I totally agree with you that any safety manip is going to add time to a reload. I was just surprised by the claim that you can't hit the safety with only one hand on the gun. I suspect we just have different things in mind with the same words, so I was wondering what you meant by it.

[SLG]

So, dove just sent me a video of him reloading a carbine. Aside from the fact that he wears a Minion outfit, it looks pretty good! Kidding on the outfit. Maybe.;-)

He is able to manipulate the safety one handed without seeming to delay taking his support hand off the gun. For a guy who claims he doesn't shoot carbines much, his manipulations look pretty good!

I played some more with the one handed safety thing today, and though I was able to do it better than I remembered, I always felt like I was compromising my hold on the gun too much. I don't know if that is true for dove or not.

Also looks like dove's hands are fairly large, and his fingers are slim and long.

Anyone else?

[breakingtime91]

So, dove just sent me a video of him reloading a carbine. Aside from the fact that he wears a Minion outfit, it looks pretty good! Kidding on the outfit. Maybe.;-)

He is able to manipulate the safety one handed without seeming to delay taking his support hand off the gun. For a guy who claims he doesn't shoot carbines much, his manipulations look pretty good!

I played some more with the one handed safety thing today, and though I was able to do it better than I remembered, I always felt like I was compromising my hold on the gun too much. I don't know if that is true for dove or not.

Also looks like dove's hands are fairly large, and his fingers are slim and long.

Anyone else?

I think it also matters where you position the carbine during the reload. My technique goes: 1)drop mag 2)safety while anchoring gun along my ribs 3) new mag 4)thumb on bolt release

[SLG]

I completely agree that a fast reload can still be accomplished, but it IS NOT POSSIBLE, to reload at exactly the same speed as if you left the safety off.

Quoting oneself is bad form, no doubt.

I still stand by my assertion, because I believe that regardless of how fast one is, one will still be able to be faster without flipping the lever. However, after seeing dove's video, I stand by to be corrected. :-)

[ST911]

Also looks like dove's hands are fairly large, and his fingers are slim and long.

Anyone else?

I have large hands and long fingers. I can flick the safety off with no break in my grip, and only a slight one when activating it. Mostly, I come off the backstrap at the top by a smidge to get my thumb underneath the selector. (I have a pretty easy time with HK and SCAR selectors too, if that reference is helpful.)

There is probably a sweet-spot for hand size in the equation.