History of Defensive Handgun Techniques

[Tamara]

I have no idea.


Okie John

My point being that surveillance camera footage gets trotted out an awful lot and used as support for "How people naturally react in gunfights."

We're then expected to model our training on the actions of convenience store clerks who haul their boss's pistol (which they've never before fired) out from under the counter to repel boarders, because that's how we'll "naturally react".

(Or maybe using dash camera footage of an officer who hasn't done a single dry trigger press since his academy days that wasn't necessary to field strip his G22.)

[HCM]

Thought about this over lunch and realized that some decent percent of police compete in PPC. Wonder if anyone has checked police gunfight results versus competition standing....

http://ppc.nra.org/ppc.aspx

Umm a decent percentage of police used to compete in PPC, 20 or 30 years ago. I know way more cops who shoot IDPA, USPSA etc than PPC. In fact the NRA has started a 3 gun ish / USPSA ish competition called TPC (Tactical Police Competition) due to the waning interest in PPC.

[BehindBlueI's]

My point being that surveillance camera footage gets trotted out an awful lot and used as support for "How people naturally react in gunfights."

We're then expected to model our training on the actions of convenience store clerks who haul their boss's pistol (which they've never before fired) out from under the counter to repel boarders, because that's how we'll "naturally react".

(Or maybe using dash camera footage of an officer who hasn't done a single dry trigger press since his academy days that wasn't necessary to field strip his G22.)

People react differently based on any number of factors. I know what I do under extreme stress but can only give you possibilities for what you will do. I suffer from auditory exclusion, I hunch my head and shoulders, etc. My initial response is to charge the threat if I can see it (which I had to unlearn because it's often stupid) and to duck and cover if I can't. I learned that from memories, but also recordings from a few incidents. As an example, a recording showed me giving verbal commands when I did not recall doing so and could not hear myself doing so. Auto-pilot response ingrained into me by training.

What surveillance video and dash cam video has been great for, IMO, is studying pre-attack indicators and seeing what does and doesn't work. Learning from other people's mistakes hurts less. Learning to see an attack coming and neutralize it...plus being able to articulate why you knew it was coming is an immensely helpful skill that seems overlooked in the civilian carry market.

[serialsolver]

Jim Cirillo shot in a lot of competitions. It seemed to help him.


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[Al T.]

police used to compete in PPC

Ah. May be a regional thing then, we have a fairly active bunch of the local officers shooting PPC.

[HCM]

Ah. May be a regional thing then, we have a fairly active bunch of the local officers shooting PPC.

Could be. The last two PPC shooters in my office retired a couple years ago. I know two or three guys across the country my age who still shoot PPC, but all are over 40 and have 20 or more years in service. I know plenty of cops who are shooters including most of the firearms instructors for the local PD, sheriffs department, and other federal agencies around here. Many of them shoot competitions ranging from IDPA and USPSA to precision rifle but I don't know any who shoot PPC.

[Tamara]

People react differently based on any number of factors. I know what I do under extreme stress but can only give you possibilities for what you will do. I suffer from auditory exclusion, I hunch my head and shoulders, etc. My initial response is to charge the threat if I can see it (which I had to unlearn because it's often stupid) and to duck and cover if I can't.

My point is that whole schools of "teaching gunfighting" have sprung up based on watching grainy B&W footage of The Simpsons' Apu backpedaling wildly while shooting a pistol one-handed and covering his eyes with his other flipper because obviously that's what we'll "naturally" do. Why is that what we'll "naturally" do? Well, because we saw this guy do it. Was he ever trained, or did he ever practice, to do anything else? *Shrug* Who knows? It's what he "naturally" did.

Now, as far as all the other stuff about hunching and auditory exclusion, that may well be natural, but that's not necessarily what I'm referring to.

There was a car chase in Lafayette not too many years back that ended with a stabbing and two officers "naturally" doing two different things with their pistols.

[BehindBlueI's]

My point is that whole schools of "teaching gunfighting" have sprung up based on watching grainy B&W footage of The Simpsons' Apu backpedaling wildly while shooting a pistol one-handed and covering his eyes with his other flipper because obviously that's what we'll "naturally" do. Why is that what we'll "naturally" do? Well, because we saw this guy do it. Was he ever trained, or did he ever practice, to do anything else? *Shrug* Who knows? It's what he "naturally" did.

Now, as far as all the other stuff about hunching and auditory exclusion, that may well be natural, but that's not necessarily what I'm referring to.

There was a car chase in Lafayette not too many years back that ended with a stabbing and two officers "naturally" doing two different things with their pistols.

I'll take your word on the schools. I'm honestly not that up on them. I am in complete agreement with the futility of "naturalness" based on video, though, which was what I was trying to get across. Sometimes I see something shiny and go off the tracks when a "yup" would probably have worked.

[Tamara]

I'll take your word on the schools. I'm honestly not that up on them. I am in complete agreement with the futility of "naturalness" based on video, though, which was what I was trying to get across. Sometimes I see something shiny and go off the tracks when a "yup" would probably have worked.

*goes back and rereads*

Ah. Now I'm tracking you.

[okie john]

My point being that surveillance camera footage gets trotted out an awful lot and used as support for "How people naturally react in gunfights."

We're then expected to model our training on the actions of convenience store clerks who haul their boss's pistol (which they've never before fired) out from under the counter to repel boarders, because that's how we'll "naturally react".

(Or maybe using dash camera footage of an officer who hasn't done a single dry trigger press since his academy days that wasn't necessary to field strip his G22.)

Mr. Hackathorn mentioned his study of surveillance video to explain the thinking behind the drills he had us shoot in class—multiple targets, multiple shots, short par times, very short range, movement, etc. He had us shoot WHO and SHO to simulate one hand being injured or occupied with something worthwhile, like carrying a child or leading a non-combatant out of harm’s way, not because we’d default to that.

Not sure how other folks use it, but if it’s as you describe, then I share your objections.


Okie John