FBI 9mm Justification

[Sigfan26]

I'm not sure about all this caliber war business... But I have been told, by a reputable source, that Jesus carried a Hi Power

[L-2]

I don't know if where I work is normal or not compared to others on these forums, but there really is no extra training. We qualify twice a year with live ammo and once every two years with a video scenario system and that's it. The range qual is on a "square" range and the Rangemasters make a course involving drawing and moving at various distances from 3' to 45' (for handgun). We'll shoot up the 52 rounds we've been carrying since the last qualification.

Any extra training is on us to arrange and request the time (and possibly reimbursement), whether on or off duty.

[SLG]

I'm not sure about all this caliber war business... But I have been told, by a reputable source, that Jesus carried a Hi Power

I think you mean "Higher Power". :-)

[Hauptmann]

I don't know if where I work is normal or not compared to others on these forums, but there really is no extra training. We qualify twice a year with live ammo and once every two years with a video scenario system and that's it. The range qual is on a "square" range and the Rangemasters make a course involving drawing and moving at various distances from 3' to 45' (for handgun). We'll shoot up the 52 rounds we've been carrying since the last qualification.

Any extra training is on us to arrange and request the time (and possibly reimbursement), whether on or off duty.

Sounds pretty normal for the majority of agencies. We have two handgun quals a year, and usually two additional handgun trainings annually. We are definitely better than most, but 75% of our officers only shoot during those trainings so most of their skills could be better. My agency does not stress shooting skill enough, yet they have mandated that the agency wishes to decommission 9mm and transition to .40 and .45 only. Almost all of our training is done with frangible green ammo which is very light in recoil. I have had a number of officers get issued .40 Sigs because they though the 9mm was too weak, and after months of training with nothing but green ammo, they start shooting full power duty ammo and have trouble qualifying. They get a respectful "I told you so" from me and most end up going back to the 9mm. I have one officer who can barely qualify with his P220 .45, yet he will not go back to a smaller caliber for reasons he will not define. I had him shoot a P226 9mm and his skill improved a little, as it helped with his recoil anticipation, but his fundamentals need work and he doesn't train often enough.

Personally, I prefer .45acp out of a full sized duty pistol. However, I dedicate myself to its mastery by shooting once a week, and reloading to encourage more training round use.

[Sigfan26]

I think you mean "Higher Power". :-)

Same same, LOL. It's a higher power if you add MecGar 15 rounders

[Chuck Haggard]

Having actually run a firearms program, for 325 or so officers at a time, my experience is that the 9mm is the "A" answer by far. Training is important, and the 9mm allows greater amounts of live fire training for the same budget, at times my yearly ammo orders/bids let me train 3-40% more than if we had .40s, and double what we could afford if we had .45s. No one in the LE world magically gets a bigger budget if they decide to start buying ammo that is more expensive.

Easier recoil helps the smaller officers, and those on the weaker end of the scale. It even helps the bigger officers. I note that while Ofc Mongo might be able to outshoot Ofc. Small when we uses his .45 vs Small's 9mm, Mongo will also do better when he shoots the lower recoiling round.

I note zero differences in effectiveness in the real world. My regional coroner actually helped me sell the idea of dumping the .40s we had in 2006 and going back to the 9mm. Why? Because in his observation he thought the 9mm was generally slightly more effective given a wide range of bullet types and engagement scenarios in that he observed the 9mm to expand more reliably in the real world than the .40. He saw every single police shooting and street shooting in eastern KS for quite a stretch of time and had a base of observation to compare things to. I note that my sources at LAPD who see every OIS they have tell me they see zero differences in effectiveness in their shootings, and they have 9mms, .40s and .45s deployed.

Even with ball ammo IMHO there no practical difference ineffectiveness between the service calibers. That's why this quote exists;

“…there is no appreciable difference in the effectiveness of the 9 mm and the .45 ACP cartridges.”
Vincent J. M. Di Maio, GUNSHOT WOUNDS: Practical Aspects of Firearms, Ballistics, and Forensic Techniques SECOND EDITION, Page 150.

Ref the 9mm not shooting through the female's sternum? Frankly, that's one of those war stories I call bullshit on. If the 9mm is good at anything it's penetration.

[Lester Polfus]

Ref the 9mm not shooting through the female's sternum? Frankly, that's one of those war stories I call bullshit on. If the 9mm is good at anything it's penetration.

I was trying to be nice with all that talk of light bullets and longer barrels... Most of the dramatic stories about failures with 9mm can either be traced to over expanding, non-penetrating bullet designs, or pure unadulterated bullshit.

One thing I've noted: I'm a big dude, with big hands. I can actually shoot .40 and .45 as well as 9mm, when it comes to measuring things like accuracy, split times and such on various drills.

However, I have to shoot a bunch more with either a .40 or a .45 to maintain an equivalent proficiency as I do with a 9mm. That is time that, right now, I don't have. Or more accurately, time I would have to take away from the 8 million or so other things I have to do right now.

I think if we extend that out to an agency where you have a finite number of hours and money to throw at training, the 9mm is a no brainer.

[HCM]

Sounds pretty normal for the majority of agencies. We have two handgun quals a year, and usually two additional handgun trainings annually. We are definitely better than most, but 75% of our officers only shoot during those trainings so most of their skills could be better. My agency does not stress shooting skill enough, yet they have mandated that the agency wishes to decommission 9mm and transition to .40 and .45 only. Almost all of our training is done with frangible green ammo which is very light in recoil. I have had a number of officers get issued .40 Sigs because they though the 9mm was too weak, and after months of training with nothing but green ammo, they start shooting full power duty ammo and have trouble qualifying. They get a respectful "I told you so" from me and most end up going back to the 9mm. I have one officer who can barely qualify with his P220 .45, yet he will not go back to a smaller caliber for reasons he will not define. I had him shoot a P226 9mm and his skill improved a little, as it helped with his recoil anticipation, but his fundamentals need work and he doesn't train often enough.

Personally, I prefer .45acp out of a full sized duty pistol. However, I dedicate myself to its mastery by shooting once a week, and reloading to encourage more training round use.

Great point regarding the green ammo. Several years ago, FLETC began converting the majority of their training ranges to lead free/green ammo only. As a result, we had new agents go through the Academy using leadfree frangible ammunition for all of their firearms training. At the time we were still using fairly hot loaded 155 grain JHP duty ammo. Unsurprisingly, we had several new agents come back from the Academy unable to qualify with duty ammunition. This has since been addressed on the training side but it was a real issue for a while.

We also found shooting large quantities of leadfree / green ammunition resulted in premature wear and failures of the extractors of our issued SIG P229Rs. We now replace the extractors and extractor springs on all trainees guns prior to graduation as a preventative measure.

We do eight hours of use of force training every quarter including firearms qualifications. Locally we split that into half a day of firearms and half a day of defense of tactics. We will normally shoot a handgun qualification twice, do a shotgun qualification and some type of drills or advanced firearms training exercise every quarter. Locally, average agent will sheet 200 to 250 rounds per quarter. It varies a little bit my location but they will normally shoot a minimum of 150 rounds per quarter.

The county sheriffs office with whom we share our range with normally qualifies once per year with the average deputy shooting 100 rounds a year on agency time. The major metro police department in our area shoots 2 to 3 times a year with the average officer shooting about 800 rounds a year. Both agencies shoot 40s, generation 4 Glock 22's for the sheriffs office and M&P's for the PD.

[GardoneVT]

Another question:
Wouldn't using 9mm also help with equipment life? Thousands of rounds of 9mm and many service pistols still have life left in them. Thousands of duty load .40 appears to be EOL for anything not made by HK.

[Chuck Haggard]

Another question:
Wouldn't using 9mm also help with equipment life? Thousands of rounds of 9mm and many service pistols still have life left in them. Thousands of duty load .40 appears to be EOL for anything not made by HK.

I know of more than one gen 1 or gen 2 G17 with over 100,000 rounds on it. I know of no .40s with that kind of round count, by any maker. I think the gun or the shooter would break before then.


In 2006 I fucked myself up shooting thousands of rounds of .40 through multiple gen 3 G22s trying to nail down what the issue was with out guns and seeing if there was a fix. I'm still paying for that stunt.