Just like the standard Gen 4's are really more like 6.5-7lb. The point is they are factory configurations with factory pull weights. Glock specifically warns against using minus connectors in LE Duty Guns. In fact Glock Blue label 34's and 35's come with standard connectors unless its and agency purchase and the agency signs a waiver for the "-".Originally Posted by GJM
I would carry an LEM V1, V2 or V4 for work but I wouldn't carry an LEM Match hybrid.
Last edited by HCM; 01-24-2016 at 08:49 PM.
Agreed.
I'm not sure why anyone would want to carry a true match LEM hybrid, given the match hammer spring reliability issues, but my understanding is that carrying a USP with the LEM version of the USP tactical trigger is OK.
HKs approach to this, based on my conversations with the head armorer at HK USA is that some, but not all, match parts are ok for duty. Basically the ones that don't change safety values or affect reliability are ok. In other words, the match parts on the USP TACTICAL (rather self evidently designed as a duty gun) are good to go, namely, the match trigger itself, nickel sear spring and match TRS.
The match hammer spring and TDA hammer are not (match hybrid LEM has same hammer as regular lem), due to ignition issues and reduced engagement values, respectively.
This said, personally, the only match part I'm likely to add to my next plain jane HK LEM is the nickel sear spring. Imho, juice isn't worth the squeeze for the rest.
Do any of you guys have input on the effect of the nickel flat spring in a LEM gun?
I'm about to that mark where I'm inclined to detail strip my HKs and considering swapping these in when I do. Currently have 2x P2000 and a P30, all TLG configuration.
On the topic, I really resonate with what Nyeti said about the visual indicator of the hammer movement. I learned to pay attention to it shooting TDA, with my press outs, and I have found that experience incredibly rewarding while acclimating to the LEM.
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I have the nickel spring in my v4 p2000 I cant tell much of a difference. The gun was originally a v3 and it did make a differance in the da pull I think most of triggers movment has already taken place in the lem so the amount of friction against that bearing surface is negligible.
Last edited by The Apprentice; 01-25-2016 at 06:33 AM.
This is a concept that's completely foreign to me. When I present a pistol on target, my vision focus is nowhere near where I can see hammer movement. Maybe Darryl can speak to this.
In regards to other discussed aspects, my GGI triggers are barely above 4 lbs. In tens of thousands live rounds fired, I've not had an ND of a "premature discharge type" once. I used to have those every six months with 5.5 lbs Glock triggers. That mile long takeup counts for something, imo.
Last edited by YVK; 01-25-2016 at 07:07 AM.
This is the big difference in how we are training and what we are training for. The hammer concept is something I picked up on during a few incidents where I had made a decision to shoot on a felon and the situation changed enough during the trigger press that I ended up not shooting. In each of these cases I remember clearly seeing the hammer moving with both revolvers and DA autos. In these cases you are assessing threat to the bitter end (which is why these did not end up as shootings) and your vision is constantly changing where and what you are focusing on, along with a huge increase in acuity. Also...after you shoot every round you are also assessing, which requires focus change. You will pick the hammer movement in this. Also, after noting this I checked with several folks who were in a lot of shootings in the revolver days and they confirmed the same thing.
I look at most guns as a use of force tool, and firearms training as an application of lethal level force. That was a change I made a long time ago from "shooting" as my focus, to correct application of force. There is a big difference. We steal a lot from the folks who focus on the micro part of the equation when the gun goes bang, but things are not always compatible. I am always trying to get more efficient and better "shooting", but it always is secondary to the proper application of lethal force as my primary concern. The LEM is one of those things that pure shooters will never really "get". For folks like me, the LEM negatives are often a non-issue in the people management arena. For those focused elsewhere, a different trigger system is better. When you are trying to focus on shooting speed, you will likely not pick up hammer movement. When you are focusing on assessment speed you can. Also, as a fail-safe for those who are over focused on the target and what is going on and may be pressing a trigger out of fear rather than an articulable threat that rises to the lethal force level, it is a small indicator in the vision plane where they can go "why is that moving"?, and stop pressing.
As far as trigger weight premature discharge ND's....we induced a bunch of these in our last close quarters shooting class, so this is a real issue. If we can get solid shooters to do it on the range....it absolutely happens in the field. It is why I do not use a press out with the trigger working. With that said, I will be playing with the "micro press out" GJM discusses elsewhere (although we may already be doing it without naming it).
Last edited by Dagga Boy; 01-25-2016 at 08:46 AM.
Just a Hairy Special Snowflake supply clerk with no field experience, shooting an Asymetric carbine as a Try Hard. Snarky and easily butt hurt. Favorite animal is the Cape Buffalo....likely indicative of a personality disorder.
"If I had a grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton".
I will second the above with one exception. The only time I really notice a difference with the nickel plated spring is when I am running a V1. When using the flat nickel spring in conjunction with a V1 setup it reduces the more pronounced wall you feel just before breaking a shot. This is a good thing if you like a rolling break, bad if you get on a trigger too soon as it makes it really easy to roll right the the trigger press and send one down range if you get on the trigger to quickly.
Edited to add:
I am also using a 10 lbs spring from an HK vendor with the V1 I run for IDPA and USPSA so that also plays a part in reducing the wall.
Last edited by Mike C; 01-25-2016 at 08:56 AM.
The way it has been working for me since Darryl gave me the face to face tutorial in October is that I am very vaguely picking up the hammer in my peripheral vision. Not with the focus that I can clearly see it, but get more an "impression" of movement. It worked well for me in Tom Givens Combative Pistol 1 class.
For info about training or to contact me:
Immediate Action Combatives
For me, with very cold digits or gloved hands, it provides visual feedback / awareness that the trigger is being pressed.
Taking a break from social media.
You can see the sights with clarity sufficient to call a shot and see hammer movement preceding it by fraction of a second?
I am away from my guns, will look into it when I am home.
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