Armstrong v. Village of Pinehurst; Fourth Circuit case regarding Taser use

[11B10]

https://youtu.be/1LLVI9kObDo

As for training, no only training is for striking and pushing. I sought out and was taught specific techniques with an ASP other than strikes that allow me to use it as a tool for control holds.

In reference to the Rodney king situation, those officers did what they were taught to do, which was extremely ineffective and gave the appearance of a beating, which it was. So I always tell guys to stay away from doing that.

First, thanks for the info and link. What I meant to say re: King was that I did know they had been taught strikes only, so that's all they knew how to do.

[DMF13]

Doesn't surprise me. Reading the information presented the part that sticks out to me is the subject was is described as stationary and not violent. Seems something similar was settled in the 9th about 5 years ago so the 4th seems a little behind.

It was settled in both the 9th and 10th Circuits long ago, and maybe more, but I can't remember if any other Circuits were cited in the decision, but the decisions in both the 9th and 10th are relevant to me and stick in my mind as I've worked in both, and taught use of force in both.

[pablo]

This is not so much a "reply" to anyone - just two specific questions from a non-LEO to experienced people like Mr. Haggard and voodoo_man. #1 - please explain the "drive stun" setting to me - when SHOULD it be used and, what is it's desired effect on a person? #2 - From what I have been able to learn, there is far too little training of ANY tactic done with all non-lethals (in this case, the ASP) - more specifically, the control techniques. A classic example, to me, seemed to be the Rodney King case. Is the lack of widespread training still true today - or, is your perception there is some of it - just far too little?

Thanks, gentlemen!

A "drive stun" is when the cartridge is removed from the Taser and it's used like a stun gun. Basically push or drive the Taser into the offender and stun them, hence "drive stun". It hurts, but because the contact are 3/4" apart they don't produce any nuero-muscular incapacitation. There's general a violent reaction to being drive stunned. It's appropriate in places where the use of the Taser is justified, it would not be appropriate to the leave cartridge on the Taser and attempt a deployment that could produce NMI, and other alternatives are not available.

IMO a good place for drive stuns is when a hand cuffed prisoner has grabbed onto a wheel well or door frame, or hooked a foot under a car to resist being placed in a police vehicle and transported. It's generally a bad idea to flood a police car with OC spray. Baton strikes aren't practical. Going hands can become very dangerous in these situations. Using a Taser with a cartridge wouldn't be appropriate since the probes would have to be removed and that's really not safe to do with a combative prisoner in the back of a police vehicle. Using a drive stun on the offending limb could be an option. If there are at least 2 officers, one officer can pull the suspect into the car while the other drive stuns the offending limb to try to get it free.

One of the big things that is often overlooked in the Rodney King incident is that in the mid 80's LAPD banned the use of the LVNR and never provided officers with anything that was nearly as effective for restraining and controlling combative subjects. Officers were basically left with the options of beat the bad guy into compliance or shoot him, and it was a ticking time bomb. LAPD brass got a pretty big pass on their bad decision making due to the lack of technology at the time. There are a lot of parallels today between highly restricted Taser use, taking away useful tools from officers, and what happened in the Rodney King incident. Use of force and taking control of a combative prisoner is rarely pretty, but letting a situation devolve into the unknown for appearance sake rarely works out long term.

[Chuck Haggard]

LAPD lost neck restraints because of in custody excited delirium deaths. Back then no one knew what we know now.


Drive stuns with the Taser almost never work, except in very specific and limited circumstances as noted above. Getting a handcuffed bad guy into the car when they plank up is one such scenario, they tend to sit down rather than take a drive stun to the pelvis. In the case in question the drive stun likely gave the dude an adrenaline dump and made things worse.

[pablo]

LAPD lost neck restraints because of in custody excited delirium deaths. Back then no one knew what we know now.

Yet despite what we know today many departments routinely fail to train their officers to handle these situations, and fail to create and enforce appropriate call response policy. Or have supervisors that have a clue about when they can make a warrantless arrest.

We've been teaching mental health crisis/excited delirium intervention BS since 2002 and I thought we were behind the curve at the time. It's amazes me at how many departments still take the let's cross our fingers and hope bad things happen to someone else approach when it comes to this.