Let's talk about handgun FMJ effectiveness

[BehindBlueI's]

Yeah, but was that a psychological or a physiological stop? What if YOUR attacker is not prone to a psychological stop and you MUST physiologically "stop" him?

"What if" leads you into a realm of fantasy. It's the source of a shit ton of bad info.

[Malamute]

This may be actually be a good time for another guess; your guess here about the particular 9mm JHP is as good as probably anyone's. However, it probably doesn't make a whole lot of difference; it was a 9mm "modern" JHP and most of them typically penetrate 12-13" in bare gel (otherwise expansion is quite unimpressive). That PD shoots a lot of people and if those JHPs were defective in some way, it would have most likely been discerned prior to this shooting...

How do we know that? There are still old school loads on the market.

Theres at least one member of the CPD on the board, I don't recall his user name. He may be able to shed light on the ammo used.

[curl]

"What if" leads you into a realm of fantasy. It's the source of a shit ton of bad info.

What if an attacker has a gun is a more realistic consideration in self-defense (especially for a civilian) than assuming that many shots can be fired at an attacker until he is psychologically or physiologically incapacitated. Sufficiently penetrating self-defense ammunition may be necessary for best results....

[curl]

How do we know that? There are still old school loads on the market.

Theres at least one member of the CPD on the board, I don't recall his user name. He may be able to shed light on the ammo used.

Probably, subject to change if and when we get to "know" otherwise. I'll be quite surprised when a reliable CPD source offers this information!

[Malamute]

Probably, subject to change if and when we get to "know" otherwise. I'll be quite surprised when a reliable CPD source offers this information!

You made a statement that indicated certainty, when it was an assumption. Much of your case against modern HP loads is in the same class of making assumptions and calling it fact.

[curl]

You made a statement that indicated certainty, when it was an assumption. Much of your case against modern HP loads is in the same class of making assumptions and calling it fact.

Which statement indicated certainty?

[Welder]

Yeah, but was that a psychological or a physiological stop?

I don't know, you're the medical 'expert', you tell me. But the fact that we have an autopsy to read, and that the coroner reported that death was caused by multiple gunshot wounds, leads me to believe that the fellow died.

What if YOUR attacker is not prone to a psychological stop and you MUST physiologically "stop" him?

That's why I have a CCW permit, have taken a class with one of the SME's on this site, bought ammo that was on the recommended carry list, carry every day, and practice as regularly as my job and daylight allow. I even play the I Don't Practice Anymore game when I have opportunity. Do you have further recommendations for what I should do, or any reason why I should become preoccupied with my ammunition? If anything, the more "evidence" I see brought to light here, the more I'm satisfied that I don't need to worry about my ammo *at all.*

Not to mention, unlike this hapless teenager, your attacker has a gun.........

See above. I haven't been in any gunfights, have you? Some people here have been, though, and I don't see any of them piling on your bandwagon. So if they've seen the elephant and aren't running scared from JHP bullets, I'm not sure why I should.

[Welder]

Which statement indicated certainty?

Your post 239.

However, it probably doesn't make a whole lot of difference; it was a 9mm "modern" JHP....

[curl]

Your post 239.

"Probably" hardly implies certainty by any widely acceptable definition.

[curl]

I don't know, you're the medical 'expert', you tell me. But the fact that we have an autopsy to read, and that the coroner reported that death was caused by multiple gunshot wounds, leads me to believe that the fellow died.

I claimed no expertise here, but have been quite factual here. What ammunition/caliber someone uses for SD is a personal choice; as I've also stated we're all free moral agents to make whatever choice, for whatever reason. The fact that a person died as a result of 16 shots fired at him from some 10 feet away is hardly of deterministic value in whether such ammunition is effective for self-defense (especially civilian). Properly chosen, with sufficient penetration of course, JHPs are likely to be more effective than FMJs -- as I have all along maintained. In any event, more practice will help you overcome whatever ammunition deficiency may exist in your self-defense ammunition choice. Practice more worry less about FMJ vs. JHP -- the topic YOU brought up!

That's why I have a CCW permit, have taken a class with one of the SME's on this site, bought ammo that was on the recommended carry list, carry every day, and practice as regularly as my job and daylight allow. I even play the I Don't Practice Anymore game when I have opportunity. Do you have further recommendations for what I should do, or any reason why I should become preoccupied with my ammunition? If anything, the more "evidence" I see brought to light here, the more I'm satisfied that I don't need to worry about my ammo *at all.*



See above. I haven't been in any gunfights, have you? Some people here have been, though, and I don't see any of them piling on your bandwagon. So if they've seen the elephant and aren't running scared from JHP bullets, I'm not sure why I should.