Let's talk about handgun FMJ effectiveness

[Trooper224]

Yet another example of the derp that's rampant on fanboy forums. I participated in that forum for a while, until the derp reached max toxicity levels. This is the only gun forum I still participate in. I suggest you do the same.

[Mitchell, Esq.]

FMJ is very effective at making sure I'm practicing correctly so I can place the better bullets in the right spot.

Can we talk about sights, decisions under stress or something like that now?

[Hambo]

Do not listen to that shit.

This ^^^

EMTdood has maybe 150 hours of training and nine years of experience hauling grandma to the hospital, but he knows more than all the people who have researched wound ballistics to this point.

[LSP972]

I know a lot of street crimes involve FMJs but often the performance is lack luster.

Not as often as you might think. Almost weekly, I see FMJ bullets come through here that were extracted from a corpse.

Having been pretty deeply involved in the whole wound ballistics gig back in the day, that got my attention. So I began looking further into these cases, and one thing jumped out at me... the great majority of times, the folks who were killed with these FMJ bullets (mainly 9mm) WERE NOT EXPECTING TO GET SHOT.

IOW, they were not amped-up either naturally or pharmaceutically. Which, of course, radically changes the way a human body responds to trauma.

Put another way, TBone, what you are being told here is right; there are several reasons why one should choose a proper expanding bullet for his defensive handgun... regardless of caliber. Yet, there is an exception to THAT, as well. When you get into the pipsqueak calibers (anything less than 9mm/.38 Special), you're probably better off with FMJ for the added penetration possibility. And that specifically includes .380, in my book.

Want more mud in the water? Several makers offer EFMJ (expanding full metal jacket) ammunition. I know, sounds like a contradiction in terms, but I have seen two examples of the Federal 9mm Guard Dog ammunition, pulled from two dead bodies, that did indeed expand and provide one-shot terminal effect. The first one had us stumped for over half a day, trying to figure out just what the hell it was. But it certainly worked. I remember wondering, at the time, what the communist bureaucrats in New Jerseystan would make of that stuff...

[GJM]

I purposely carry FMJ ammo all summer around bears, but I don't think that is what the derp-er was contemplating.

[wrinkles]

One thing that stands out is the article and the thread are equating "wounding" to temporary cavity in pistol rounds. From what I've read TC does not create significant wounding in service pistol calibers. Second the primary wounding effect of a service pistol caliber is the crush cavity and that is created by the bullets leading edge cutting and crushing tissue. A fmj does not expand so the tissue crusted by it is always less than that of and expanded hollow point.

Duncan MacPherson determined the size of the permanent crush cavity left by bullets at hundgun velocities to be direct functions of the shape, and diameter of the bullet.

MacPherson's bullet shape factor for the following bullet shape configurations (p. 205):

.43 Sphere
.69 Round Nose
1.00 Cylinder
.66 Truncated Cone
.66 Semi-wadcutter
.63 45-degree half angle cone
.82 JHP

Permanent cavity diameter = (Shape factor) X (bullet diameter).

[41magfan]

I so wished that I had taken some pictures of the bullets recovered from various victims and crime scenes over the years. It would clearly show that a fair percentage of them do not predictably perform like far too many people think. I'm 100% confident that I could display some of those recovered bullets and not a single person on this planet could accurately describe the circumstances in which those projectiles were fired. I've seen expandable bullets penetrate like hardball and I've seen hardball fail to penetrate more than a few inches.

Here's a sample of one to make my point. This recovered bullet came from a deer I shot at about 15 yards, so impact velocity was still very predictable. The round was a 1st Generation Winchester Black Talon which routinely and predictably perform in ballistic gel. Point of entry was center of the chest and the bullet was found in the intestines after having penetrating well over 2 feet.

I would be the last person to argue that bullet makers haven't done a great job of balancing the competing interest of expansion and penetration, but it ain't magic yet folks ..... it can be a total crap shoot. This single example isn't as much of an anomaly as some would lead you to believe.

[5pins]

IIRC the NYPD started with FMJ’s when they went from the .38 revolver to the 9mm pistol. Someone here probably knows better than I but if memory serves they dumped ball ammo because of poor performance and over penetration.

[Mitchell, Esq.]

Dam auto correct. My above post was supposed to say "FMJ" but whatever.

I think we all agree ball sucks in service pistol calibers especially if there is a better option.

If forced to use it, I'd just practice more so I'd be faster and more accurate.

[5pins]

Found some info.

http://dailycaller.com/2015/08/18/is...ncealed-carry/

From the early ’90s adoption of 16-shot 9mm pistols (Glock 19, SIG Sauer P226 DAO and Smith & Wesson Model 5946) through 1999, NYPD issued a full metal jacket “hardball” round, comprising a round-nose 115-grain bullet in the mid-1,100 fps velocity range. The New York Times exposed the following facts in its startling report on the matter:
“According to statistics released by the department, 15 innocent bystanders were struck by police officers using full metal jacket bullets during 1995 and 1996, the police said. Eight were hit directly, five were hit by bullets that had passed through other people and two were hit by bullets that had passed through objects,” stated the Times.
In other words, in rough numbers, 53 percent of these tragic occurrences were apparently missed shots, while 33 percent were “shoot-throughs” of violent felony suspects. Counting bullets that went through objects to hit presumably unseen innocent victims (13 percent), that tells us that roughly 46 percent of these innocent bystanders were shot by over-penetrating bullets that “pierced their backstops.” Let’s call those victims Cases One Through Seven.

The Times continued, “In that same period, 44 police officers were struck by gunfire using the old ammunition: 21 were hit directly, 2 were struck by bullets that ricocheted and 17 were struck by bullets that passed through other people.”
In round numbers, 52 percent of those “friendly fire” casualties were hit by bullets that apparently missed their intended targets. 42 percent passed through the bodies of the intended targets after the bullets struck the people they were aimed at. Let’s tally those victims of over-penetration as Cases Eight through Twenty-Fo