DC Police Force Struggling To Keep Up

[voodoo_man]

We've had major problems with the proliferation of synthetic cannabis, i.e. K2 and Spice, over last few years. People on that stuff exhibit a lot of the same behaviors as people PCP, meth, and/or crack. Once in a blue moon we would get someone with serious mental problems who'd smoke some marijuana, go all out crazy and exhibit symptoms of being on a 5-6 days meth and crack bender. Now it's almost nightly with someone on K2 or Spice.

I deal with people high on K2 and other synthetic crap nearly once a week. The state house made it a felony to possess a synthetic drug and did that stop people from doing it?

Nope.

[cclaxton]

As far as DC police go, they are like a lot of big departments and operate in Crisis Mode. There's high level micromanagement, incompetent management at that, and the department as a whole stumbles from one crisis to the next. Supervisors and officers aren't allowed to nip small problems in the bud, like a couple gang related robberies at the mall, because that isn't a current command staff priority. That allows the problem to turn into a crime spree that gets national news attention, so a crisis, and the an overwhelming man power response to the crisis, "See we are doing something!". That's robbing to pay Paul to pay Peter on manpower, and call times start to suffer. That problem isn't addressed, because it's not a command staff priority, until the media starts looking into it. There's a new crisis, and Paul gets robbed again to pay Peter. This time it's detective's getting pulled to work patrol. Cases don't get worked and there's a new crisis. It just turns into the hugely demoralizing pattern of reacting to crisis after crisis. It's like a sports player that makes millions of dollars and is still broke, it isn't an income problem it's a management problem. No amount of hiring is going to fix DC police's underlying management issues.

It seems to me this is a watershed moment for Law Enforcement at the local and state level. As LEO's here point out there is disillusionment and low morale due to many factors, the public is pressuring LE to make fewer lethal mistakes, the public still expects cops to be there in a crisis, civilians are poorly trained in how to manage an encounter with police, and cops are getting arrested at higher rates than in the past. Policy-making for LE is fraught with problems and bureaucracy, and training budgets are inadequate, mental health patients are roaming the streets instead of being treated, and we aren't willing to write a blank check to LE.

Will smarter and better policing emerge from this mess?
Cody

[HCM]

There are a lot of things that should fall into the category of: Tolerated, and legal but not encouraged, and treated when out of control:, porn, ...... prostitution

Cody, This ^^^^. really demonstrates your ignorance and naiveté.

Human trafficking is what fuels prostitution in the United. States. It is real and occurs regularly all over the country. Drugs are inexorably linked to domestic human trafficking in the United States.

If you think otherwise, you are living in a fantasy land.

Do some research on human trafficking in the United States then come back and tell me how prostitution and drugs are harmless vices.

[HCM]

It seems to me this is a watershed moment for Law Enforcement at the local and state level. As LEO's here point out there is disillusionment and low morale due to many factors, the public is pressuring LE to make fewer lethal mistakes, the public still expects cops to be there in a crisis, civilians are poorly trained in how to manage an encounter with police, and cops are getting arrested at higher rates than in the past. Policy-making for LE is fraught with problems and bureaucracy, and training budgets are inadequate, mental health patients are roaming the streets instead of being treated, and we aren't willing to write a blank check to LE.

Will smarter and better policing emerge from this mess?
Cody

This is nothing new. This sounds exactly like what was going on in policing in the 1970's. It will continue until crime reaches intolerable levels. Then the tide of public opinion will turn and proactive policing will make a comeback.

That Santayana guy was pretty smart .....

[okie john]

What do we have a statistical increase in? DUI accidents where Marijuana is the only factor. Increased juvenile use and statistically more hard drug arrests - which isnt surprising since officers dont and never have focused on Marijuana but now they really dont.

Someone should source some factual statistics from legalized states on DUI arrests and accidents. I have a feeling its through the roof.

In Washington State, we're seeing little kids ingesting edible marijuana because their stoner parents leave weed brownies and candy lying around. And I'm not talking about high-school kids--I'm talking about kids barely out of diapers. They see what looks like candy or sweets, they eat it, and they end up in the emergency room. Meanwhile Mom and Dad are too high to handle what's going on. http://www.kingcounty.gov/depts/heal...marijuana.aspx

It's happening in Colorado, too: http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_25...ting-marijuana

Another problem is that marijuana today is so strong that users remain impaired--slowed reactions, slurred speech, general stupor--for days after using. So it's not just the stupid stuff they do when they're high, it's a second order of stupid stuff that they do when they think they've come down but they haven't. If you have to work with any of these idiots, you'll see what I mean. It's like they're under water, but they're out in public thinking that they're operating at full capacity when they're not--some of them have trouble summoning the coordination to fumble through their pockets when it's time to pay for a cup of coffee at Starbucks.

So yeah, legal marijuana looks OK on paper, but it's a very different thing if you have to live around it.


Okie John

[TGS]

Regarding the generalized comment, "No good cop will give people trouble over a joint...", can we just stop fucking saying that? When people say that, 1) it sounds like they're admitting that the criminalization is bullshit anyway and trying to minimize it, and 2) The American experiment is not based upon relying on the benevolence of our elected or appointed officials. Stop using the excuse that a "good cop wouldn't do such and such anyway" as an excuse to criminalize something.

______________________

The sun has come up every morning? That's your argument for it? At least mine is based on first hand observation.

That's not my argument for it.....it's me trying to make a simple point that the teetotalers thought the world would turn to shit without prohibition, yet it hasn't. Likewise, it's the same old tired argument that we see with gun control. Gun control advocates said the streets would run red with blood if we had shall-issue CCW, the end of the AWB, ect...yet none of it materialized.

You have a very progressive list. I'm sure it sounds good to you, but ask any investigator who has worked prostitution long enough. People smuggling is very real problem, often used to feed the prostitution industry. Many of them die in the process. TGS will have the opportunity to see it first hand. I wonder what his opinion will be then?

Well, I haven't given you my opinion one way or the other on prostitution. If you're referencing my opinion on drugs, see below.....

The people smugglers usually tie into drug smugglers/weapons smuggler and even terrorists. There is nothing benign or consensual about that. You live in a utopia in your head, no doubt fueled by marijuana (it sounds like).

Yeah, of course the drugs are often tied in with other black market items. That's how the black market works....they import what you can't have. Another item that's tied to the same people as drugs, terrorism, arms trafficking, human trafficking, is antiquities. That doesn't mean we ban antiquities, and use the illegal trafficking of such as a reason to do so.

Correlation does not equal causation. The way I see it......and many people who are indeed smart individuals unlike what you claim, is that if we control the production and sale of marijuana then it will hurt the arms/drugs/human traffickers and terrorists. Take away the majority of their weed business, and this does two things:

1) It shrinks the income for the cartels, meaning they shrink. That means their power and sphere of influence shrinks. That means that power vacuum is filled by governments, meaning those governments can now have a little breathing room and regain power. They can become legitimate again. They can actually effectively use resources on what cartels remain.

2) It creates lawful cash flow in the US, which can be taxed. We kinda need that. It allows government resources to be more thoroughly concentrated on combating cartels. This would be a natural result of the USG wanting to protect its cash flow from cartel encroachment.

So, I don't see it the same way as you. Of course there's still going to be black market drugs, specifically stuff that isn't going to be legalized like heroin, meth, ect.

It's not "freedom" when it encroaches on everyone else who is not involved in it.

The simple act of smoking a joint does not encroach on others' freedom. And, actually, most of the indirect encroachment that you're pissed about (via the illicit drug trade) is the direct result of marijuana being illegal in the first place. It's no different than the 18th Amendment, in that regard.

_____________

I really, really do want to hear a good argument about why we shouldn't legalize marijuana. I'm hearing the same stuff I've already heard, which is generally poorly hashed out, ridiculous arguments based on it being an evil substance that ruins humanity, or at the very least representative of personal experience in LE that is poorly conveyed. If anyone can actually coherently tie the legalization of marijuana to broken window theory, or some other criminal context, please do so. I want to hear it and learn. It's really why I asked.

[TGS]

As for the legal pot thing, I'd love to see some long term numbers on what actually happens when you decriminalize pot on a larger than city scale. IMO it needs to be numbers from more than a year or 2 into it. As with everything taboo that is no longer taboo folks will experiment at the onset and then stabilize. I'd like to see the stabilize me numbers not the initial spikes at the onset. Similar thing for larger scale experiments than just cities. Small areas that decriminalize/legalize will draw the potheads and skew numbers a bit. Colorado may become a decent case study over the next 5 years or so. IMO decriminalization needs to be coupled with increased expectations of personal responsibility. You can't just say drugs are legal and society will fix you up when you screw up. Punishments for criminal activities associated with drugs, alcohol... need to seriously hit those who abuse these items. DUI and the like must have consequences other than a slap on the wrist. Loss of tax based benefits for a conviction such as no section 8 housing, no unemployment benefits if you loose a job due to substance abuse... We just don't have the balls to do those cause it would piss off a lot of voters.

That sounds reasonable to me.

[SLG]

TGS,

Many LEO'S here have told you what you're asking. There are even article links. Your ideas are based on theory. We are talking about what we are actually seeing in our communities. That may not be the most accurate, double blind way of studying the issue, but it is what we do for a living. I'm sorry I'm not coherent enough for you, I'll stop bothering your extremely informed view now.

BTW, I've gotten some texts during this discussion, from some of your experienced co-workers. They watch this stuff. They have worked these issues and have come to the same conclusions that I and most of law enforcement have come too. We'll see where you fall on these issues in a bit. I'm sure you're old job would have thought smoking weed was not a detriment either?

[cclaxton]

Cody, This ^^^^. really demonstrates your ignorance and naiveté.

Human trafficking is what fuels prostitution in the United. States. It is real and occurs regularly all over the country. Drugs are inexorably linked to domestic human trafficking in the United States.

If you think otherwise, you are living in a fantasy land.

Do some research on human trafficking in the United States then come back and tell me how prostitution and drugs are harmless vices.

Oh, I believe you. But in European countries we don't see the trafficking problems like we have here. When Alcohol was illegal, we had a huge problem with violence and bootlegging and associated crime to protect those industries. You don't see that now. The same would happen if we legalized and decriminalized them. By taking the focus on the behavior itself, it allows more resources to focus on the trafficking itself. By forcing the behavior underground, it just makes it all harder to control.
Cody

[cclaxton]

This is nothing new. This sounds exactly like what was going on in policing in the 1970's. It will continue until crime reaches intolerable levels. Then the tide of public opinion will turn and proactive policing will make a comeback.

That Santayana guy was pretty smart .....

You make it seem like we haven't learned anything new or better policing methods or how to use technology better or how to do better intelligence or how to deal with mentally ill better or how to better avoid death and injury. That is what I mean by a watershed moment.
Cody