Given up on my Cz-P01, back to the H&K LEM or Try DA/SA ?

[darkparadox]

Originally carried my Glock 26/19 OTWB, once I decided Appendix carry was the right choice (Easier to conceal. Also easier to draw with bum shoulders) My search for a hammer fired pistol began. Tried the H&K P30 LEM V1 initially, carried it 2-3 times and put about 200 rounds through it. Did not take me long to decide that the pistol was too large as an EDC for my preference. Did find it more difficult to shoot compared to my Glock's, but based on the round count never put much thought into it. I then purchased an H&K P2000sk LEM. The overall dimensions worked perfectly for EDC. And the versatility of carrying it with the factory magazine, or a H&K p2000 magazine with an X-grip worked fantastically. Put about 1,000 rounds through this pistol... and came to the conclusion that the LEM had a steep learning curve. On average I'm only able to shoot 100-250 rounds a month, and it was not enough to feel overly confident in my abilities with the pistol.

So I purchased a Cz-P01. Feels great in my hand, conceals well and after the DA pull was lightened up slightly my most accurate pistol. Shot it better than my Glock's right off the bat, and much better than my H&K. This became my EDC. However, out of the 1,500 rounds I have put through it, I have had 4 double feeds with various ammo and two FTE. So my confidence in the pistol is shot.

Right now, I am back to the H&K p2000sk. However I simply cannot master the LEM with the amount of shooting I'm able to do. And I've read the threads of far more experienced and proficient shooters saying it can be a bit challenging comparatively speaking. At this point, curious if I should give an H&K p2000sk DA/SA a try ? Not really sure how to asses if the LEM is the bigger issue or simply the fit of the H&K in my hand ? After a bit of practice the p2000sk was easier to shoot than the p30, which was a good example that just because a pistol feels better in your hand does not necessarily mean it works better for you.

Not comfortable carrying a striker fired pistol even when my Gadgets arrive. The only other option is the Sig p229, but that is a bit bulkier than I would prefer. Has anyone had success with H&K DA/SA pistols, but issues with the LEM on the very same platform ? I have handled a few in DA/SA at various gun stores, the DA pull seems dreadful compared to my Cz or a Sig. And not finding many options to remedy that.

[HopetonBrown]

What's your training background?

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[GJM]

Are you using MecGar or OEM magazines, and if OEM, did you replace the magazine springs with Wolff extra power springs?

All other things being equal, an HK will be more reliable and a CZ easier to shoot. If you want an HK, a P2000 or SK with a DA/SA trigger and Wolff 12 pound hammer spring is easier for me to shoot than a LEM.

[TGS]

Are you quantifying your performance with standardized, repeatable drills and making your judgements?

I'd also consider the answer to your training background.

[CCT125US]

If you want an HK, a P2000 or SK with a DA/SA trigger and Wolff 12 pound hammer spring is easier for me to shoot than a LEM.

I keep looking for a reason to keep my SK V3, that may be it. Not to make it easier than the LEM, but reduce the weight of the DA and reduce fatigue. I think about selling it off every 4 months or so, but never get the nerve.

[GJM]

The Wolff 12 drops right into the P2000, but might take some trimming in the SK. YVK might chime in as he has a GGI SK.

While I don't covet the P2000 DA trigger, with the Wolff it is usable. Same result with that spring in a P30 and P30L.

I can relate to the heavy spring thing as I pulled my USP so much last summer in DA, I hurt my finger.

[LSP972]

I'm a bit curious, darkparadox, as to what your definition of "mastering" a trigger is. And I ask, because while I am not one to try to diagnose that sort of thing over a keyboard, I have converted a fair number of folks to the the LEM without much difficulty.

Still, the LEM is not for everybody, that's certainly true enough. I know experienced shooters who simply do not LIKE it. That said, the DA/SA version of your preferred HK pistols might be the answer you're looking for.

Just remember; DA/SA (or, as some refer to it as TDA-Traditional Double Action) adds another dimension to your manual of arms… decocking after a string of fire, to be specific. Forget to do that, and you're back to pointing an easy-to-make-go-off pistol at yourself when re-holstering.

I am NOT trying to discourage you from exploring the DA/SA option… it is one of the better choices for the "casual" shooter. But you do need to be aware of the importance of instilling a decocking reflex in yourself; and that, like trigger discipline/skill, takes time and repetitions.

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[psalms144.1]

Dark - it's hard to give advice without knowing your background, and how much training (quality training from a competent firearms instructor) you have. I will say, as an LE FI for the last couple of decades, I can't count (and don't want to think about) the number of times I've stopped shooters from holstering a cocked-hammer DA/SA pistol; and we carried Sig P228s or other traditional DA/SA Sigs EXCLUSIVELY for the better part of 15 years. As a result, I'm not really a fan of DA/SA - people who think the 10-12# DA trigger pull is "safer" from NDs have never seen reflexive fire occur. But, if you're comfortable and competent with the DA/SA transition, and have ingrained into muscle memory through several thousand repetitions the motion of hitting a decocking lever/button (I still swipe my strong hand thumb down the grip of my issued P229R DAK at the end of every string in our course of fire - I can't stop myself), then more power to you.

On specific pistols, I'm a BIG fan of the P2000, I think it's the "pick of the litter" in the HK lineup, personally. Unfortunately, it's hampered with one of the crappiest iterations of HK's DA/SA, and the LEM reset is about as long as any they market. Also, it has HK's very "unique" rear-of-the-frame mounted decocking button - again, if you train to use it, it should be an exclusive thing - because it's placed and works differently than any other decocker I know of.

The P2000sk, for me, doesn't serve a purpose, except for ankle carry. Frankly, when I need to REALLY conceal a firearm (undercover, or in formalish attire - weddings, funerals, etc), I'll take a single stack 9mm over any double-stack - there's that much of a difference in concealment. The sk's short grip is also not maximized for efficient and effective shooting, IMHO.

WRT the LEM itself, while I don't prefer it over striker fired systems, it's not THAT hard to "master," as long as you understand it's purpose. As Nyeti has eloquently pointed out repeatedly, the LEM isn't designed to be a speed-shooting trigger, it's designed to be a DELIBERATE shooting trigger. It needs to be run smoothly and with consistency, not "hammered" like a Glock trigger. I have several shooters on my "squad" who routinely shoot high 290s or "clean" our qual (300/300) using my 9mm P2000 with "TLG" LEM, and they probably shoot 200 rounds A YEAR, or less, in total. But, they're also not trying to keep up with my shooting pace using my G19.

So, at the end of a long ramble, my suggestions would be (a) if you shoot the P01 well and like it, carry your P2Ksk while it goes off to a competent smith for an evaluation (Cajun Gunworks or CZ USA would be my suggestions). If you're totally "over" the P01 (and it happens, I'm not judging, really), then I'd suggest the P2000 over the sk version, in 9mm, with the trigger of your choice. If you want a DA/SA and are willing to train it to be competent, then go for it; the LEM really isn't for everyone.

Hope this helps!

[imp1295]

My only comment is that I was in a similar situation about two years ago.

I had transitioned to the P-01 and was enjoying it until about 1,000 rounds into the 2,000 round test. Which just happened to be during a Tom Givens Combative pistol class in Texas.

I started having a number of FTFs and after Mr. Givens explaining that was a clue and much online research I abandoned the platform for a P30 LEM and eventually a P2000 LEM.

Did I have a "performance" decline? Yes. But, over the last two years I've stuck with it, took more training classes to include training with Wayne Dobbs and Nyeti with the LEM and am fairly pleased with the platform. It has taught me more as a mediocre shooter and although my splits and accuracy are typically about 10-15% lower than with a SFA the reliability of the HK platform and consistency of the LEM has been worth it.

I can still pick up a polymer SFA and shoot it a bit better. But for my needs, that is acceptable given the other advantages of the HK and LEM.

P.S. I still consider other platforms all the time, because buying firearms is fun. But, it only inhibits my progress when I switch platforms too often because I'm not at the level of some on this board who are at a much higher level.


Sent from my brain housing group.

[GJM]

I think magazines, and to a lesser degree sights, are the weak link if the P01. P07 OEM mags, which are Mecgar seem fine.

The 229 seems to combine the reliability of the HK with shoot ability of the CZ.