Rifle Rounds...tested in water...a bad protocol?

[Unobtanium]

Obviously shooting water is not gel or people or animals, but I have noticed some disturbing trends. The last few times I shot water jugs, I had some shocking results. Both 70gr GMX 5.56, and 50gr TSX Black Hills (factory load with the LE bullet) 5.56 fragmented and veered/tumbled. The GMX was kindof the dark side of the moon to me, but when the 50gr TSX fragged and tumbled from a 16.1" barrel, I began to wonder...does water cause projectiles from rifles with hollow-point design to over-expand/expand more violently than actual tissue? I would presume not, as tissue is actually denser, but...? Are these rounds likely to frag in tissue, if they are fragmenting in water, or is that the wrong conclusion to draw? Why/why not?

[DocGKR]

Water results in the maximum upset that a projectile can offer--gel and tissue are typically less.

[Unobtanium]

Water results in the maximum upset that a projectile can offer--gel and tissue are typically less.

Does this apply to soft-points and hollow points equally, or just hollowpoints? I would think a softpoint would expand more violently the harder the medium it hit?

[Stone]

"Obviously shooting water is not gel or people or animals, but I have noticed some disturbing trends" I think you might be unconsciously comparing apples and oranges. Physics is by no means my strong point but shooting a bullet into muscle tissue and water will give you 2 different outcomes based on the density and specific gravity of each, respectively. Compounding the issue with velocity and energy affects how each medium absorbs and affects the projectiles energy in turn affecting the projectile itself. While water at arms length seems soft and easy to penetrate when you add in excessive force and strike an object the physics change. Also the temperature of the water changes its density. Have you also considered how the plastic on the water jug is affecting initial upset? Maybe using a pork shoulder covered with a layer if denim will yield closer results to actual muscle tissue data. Even the most basic scientific tests need to follow some guidelines.

Identifying a testable question. The question should be answerable, using affordable materials and methods that are both safe and feasible.
•Testing each variable in an experiment more than once. Repeated testing will ensure you have enough data to make valid conclusions.
•Testing only one variable at a time. This approach allows you to identify and measure the effect of each variable individually.
•Data gathering and recording. Data include measurements and observations.
•Graphing data, and then identifying trends in the data. That will help support your conclusion.

[Chuck Haggard]

Having shot bullets into water, gel, animals, and seeing the results of autopsies, I note that water is the medium that expands a bullet the most if it's going to expand, and causes fragmentation in bullets that I haven't commonly seen fragment in the other mediums.

All of the service caliber handgun bullets I have seen removed from people, or deer, look most like the four layer denim or "heavy clothing" test bullets, which is distinctly different that what I get in water testing. Same-same with rifle bullets I have taken from deer vs shot into water.

[Unobtanium]

Having shot bullets into water, gel, animals, and seeing the results of autopsies, I note that water is the medium that expands a bullet the most if it's going to expand, and causes fragmentation in bullets that I haven't commonly seen fragment in the other mediums.

All of the service caliber handgun bullets I have seen removed from people, or deer, look most like the four layer denim or "heavy clothing" test bullets, which is distinctly different that what I get in water testing. Same-same with rifle bullets I have taken from deer vs shot into water.

If you had to do a correlation with water vs. flesh, what would the velocity differential be in hollow point type rifle rounds?

Say, if a bullet frags barely at 2700fps in water, would it hold together up to 2900fps in flesh, or...?

[Chuck Haggard]

I'd simply look at water as an acid test, let's say I want to build a bonded bullet for magnum hunting rifles that will not break up if a guy hits an elk at close range, I'd test at close range in water as part of my development process.

[Lomshek]

Does this apply to soft-points and hollow points equally, or just hollowpoints? I would think a softpoint would expand more violently the harder the medium it hit?

Mythbusters did a shooting into water episode that answers some of that.

https://youtu.be/hDnk1GQUiYY?t=17m45s

[SamAdams]

This is something that I want to do this year - test loads through water. People have often speculated as to the effectiveness of various loads that aren't the focus of the big manufacturers today (understandably). This includes service revolver loads and outdoorsmans loads for animal defense. Using one of the loads off 'The List' & testing through water will at least give some kind of baseline for comparison.