Carbine vs handgun

[Mr_White]

Kevin B.,

Good contribution, thanks for posting that!

The carbine run on Front Sight is also very interesting - have you shot that with a pistol and how did you do? USPSA Classifiers are probably a gold mine for short-form comparisons of accuracy and speed, especially since so many people's pistol scores are available.

[Kevin B.]

The carbine run on Front Sight is also very interesting - have you shot that with a pistol and how did you do? USPSA Classifiers are probably a gold mine for short-form comparisons of accuracy and speed, especially since so many people's pistol scores are available.

I do not have my numbers, but I came in at a little over 80% in Production class- a solid A class run.

[psalms144.1]

A question -
How did you decide on start positions?

There's a MEU(SOC) pistol qual as well, in it, all engagements start at ready rifle, and require a transition to a holstered handgun. In that light, I think the ready rifle vs holstered pistol is a pretty fair analysis.

Plus I like the way Kev is thinking on training it the way the pistol is MOST likely to be used in an active threat situation - unless you're a first responder, of course. Then ready pistol would be a better choice, IMHO.

[Mr_White]

I do not have my numbers, but I came in at a little over 80% in Production class- a solid A class run.

Excellent, thanks for the info.

[UNK]

Awesome chart thanks!!

Here it is: http://www.handloads.com/calc/index.html

Just fill in the blanks. I did a search of bullets to find the ballistic coefficient. Some 9mm's were .155 for a 115 fmj, .141 for 124 HAP, .208 for a 147 Speer.

[Mr_White]

One of the big underlying aspects of this thread is confidence. I started a new thread to see if we can get some discussion going on this larger issue: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....78-Confidence&

[GJM]

About an hour ago, I stopped by a local gun shop to pick something up. I was just finishing a call, and standing in the parking lot outside finishing up a call, when a truck pulled in to the parking lot. I watched the guy get out, and pull out a SBR sized long gun.

I told my caller I needed to go. Guy has the SBR in his dominant hand, and starts to turn towards me. I note there is a magazine inserted in the firearm. He isn't muzzling me, but at the same time he isn't carrying the firearm as I would expect for "bringing it into the store." I am watching him intently, as he grabs the magazine with his support hand and removes it, while walking towards me and the store.

I can tell it is a CZ Evo with a Sig brace. I said "hey, is that a CZ Evo?" he says "yes." I said "I see you are removing the magazine." He says "yes, but it is loaded, as a gun isn't any good unloaded."

I really wanted to tell him that this wasn't a great way to bring a gun out of a vehicle, in a public area, but I didn't think he would get it. Inside, we had a nice chat about the Evo. I was very happy to be carrying a hi-cap, service pistol.

[Lomshek]

About an hour ago, I stopped by a local gun shop to pick something up. I was just finishing a call, and standing in the parking lot outside finishing up a call, when a truck pulled in to the parking lot. I watched the guy get out, and pull out a SBR sized long gun.

I told my caller I needed to go. Guy has the SBR in his dominant hand, and starts to turn towards me. I note there is a magazine inserted in the firearm. He isn't muzzling me, but at the same time he isn't carrying the firearm as I would expect for "bringing it into the store." I am watching him intently, as he grabs the magazine with his support hand and removes it, while walking towards me and the store.

I can tell it is a CZ Evo with a Sig brace. I said "hey, is that a CZ Evo?" he says "yes." I said "I see you are removing the magazine."
He says "yes, but it is loaded, as a gun isn't any good unloaded."

I really wanted to tell him that this wasn't a great way to bring a gun out of a vehicle, in a public area, but I didn't think he would get it. Inside, we had a nice chat about the Evo. I was very happy to be carrying a hi-cap, service pistol.

A sheeple like you will never understand the sheepdog way of life!

[voodoo_man]

About an hour ago, I stopped by a local gun shop to pick something up. I was just finishing a call, and standing in the parking lot outside finishing up a call, when a truck pulled in to the parking lot. I watched the guy get out, and pull out a SBR sized long gun.

I told my caller I needed to go. Guy has the SBR in his dominant hand, and starts to turn towards me. I note there is a magazine inserted in the firearm. He isn't muzzling me, but at the same time he isn't carrying the firearm as I would expect for "bringing it into the store." I am watching him intently, as he grabs the magazine with his support hand and removes it, while walking towards me and the store.

I can tell it is a CZ Evo with a Sig brace. I said "hey, is that a CZ Evo?" he says "yes." I said "I see you are removing the magazine." He says "yes, but it is loaded, as a gun isn't any good unloaded."

I really wanted to tell him that this wasn't a great way to bring a gun out of a vehicle, in a public area, but I didn't think he would get it. Inside, we had a nice chat about the Evo. I was very happy to be carrying a hi-cap, service pistol.

No blade at 45 degree, shouting commands and shooting wildly?

Fail...

[jthhapkido]

There's a MEU(SOC) pistol qual as well, in it, all engagements start at ready rifle, and require a transition to a holstered handgun. In that light, I think the ready rifle vs holstered pistol is a pretty fair analysis.

Plus I like the way Kev is thinking on training it the way the pistol is MOST likely to be used in an active threat situation - unless you're a first responder, of course. Then ready pistol would be a better choice, IMHO.

Well, it isn't like you'd have a rifle at all unless you were a first responder, yes? While I think that the comparison is useful, it seems to me that you are comparing two dissimilar things, and then (unsurprisingly) getting different results. If the goal was to compare to dissimilar things and see how much difference occurred, knowing that the situation itself is part of that difference, that makes sense. If instead the goal was to compare two different weapons in the same circumstances, then to my mind that test isn't actually doing it.

Sure, a person suddenly thrown into an active shooter situation will (probably) be starting from a holstered concealed pistol. If Kevin meant to compare that to the capabilities of someone (a first responder, for example) armed with a rifle, then yes, that makes sense. Pistol would be concealed, and the rifle would be at low ready.

But instead if he was looking at what difference the weapon makes in similar situations (for example, first responders who only have access to a pistol versus first responders who have access to a patrol rifle), then I'm thinking the comparison won't work, because a first responder (even with only a pistol) will have it out and ready---and that is going to save time for most people. There are a lot of draws in that sequence...

Kevin, were you comparing weapon differences, or situation differences? (If you already answered that somewhere, I apologize for missing it.)