The Flinch, Pre-Ignition Push, "Unwanted Gun Movement"

[Sal Picante]

I think that both types of movement are "bad". I tend to think that people who are anticipating recoil write off the movement of the gun as a "post-ignition" motion, but I suspect that they're deluding themselves much of the time.

I'm not talking about tightening up when railing Bill drills or 4 yard wide-opens. I'm speaking, rather specifically, of a subconscious motion when shooting at tougher, distant targets - say 12 yard partials. or 12 yard 4" dots at a high rate of speed. Example: Flinching a few shots out of the 4" circle - like 2" or so low - when running a 10 yard El Presidente with circles on the targets at ~8 second tempo...

When using snap caps, I can see this happening as (mostly) subtle push of the gun. Sometimes it is an amazing push!

[Sal Picante]

I haven't tried mixing snap caps in for some time. The last time I did, a couple years ago I think, I remember feeling like it was actually inducing a flinch. That was random ball and dummy (I don't remember what kind of drill I was doing though) and I feel like it amounted to too much concentration on not flinching, leading to flinching.

The more I mix them in, the more I find that I just don't mind about them anymore. They just happen, you clear it, keep going. When I hit one and see an appreciable dip, my "penalty" is to finish the drill, then do remedial action with a Rogers staggered magazine. This helps.

If I catch myself flinching, I often immediately unload and do some dry presses and make sure I don't flinch and I reaffirm isolating the trigger finger (as time goes on, that has a more and more distinct internal feeling for me.)

That's the rub - I don't flinch in dry fire. I flinch, very slightly, in live fire. I don't believe I can fix this in dry fire. I suspect it is partly the overpressure, the recoil, etc... All conspiring to flinch.

[LSP552]

When I find myself flinching, it's generally because I'm tired, either physically or mentally. I have decent arthritis in my strong hand and trigger finger (broken twice, once at the knuckle). If I get stupid with the DA practice, I'll suffer for a couple of days afterwards. I have a much greater focus on quality instead of quantity now.

If I'm physically tired, ball and dummy drills or the .22 top end doesn't help. The only thing that does is taking a break. My mental fatigue creeps in sometimes when I push hard on a specific task and and keep at it past my attention span. Again, for me, I just need to take a break and re-focus.

New shooters are a different thing. With them, I believe flinches are more related to over exposure past their confront level. 22s and ball and dummy drills help expand their comfort zone and can be a big help for new shooters. I believe they become less helpful as the shooter's ability increases.

Since you are the complete opposite from a new shooter, could you be pushing too hard and fast and hitting physical or mental tiredness?

[Mr_White]

I think that both types of movement are "bad". I tend to think that people who are anticipating recoil write off the movement of the gun as a "post-ignition" motion, but I suspect that they're deluding themselves much of the time.

I'm not talking about tightening up when railing Bill drills or 4 yard wide-opens. I'm speaking, rather specifically, of a subconscious motion when shooting at tougher, distant targets - say 12 yard partials. or 12 yard 4" dots at a high rate of speed. Example: Flinching a few shots out of the 4" circle - like 2" or so low - when running a 10 yard El Presidente with circles on the targets at ~8 second tempo...

When using snap caps, I can see this happening as (mostly) subtle push of the gun. Sometimes it is an amazing push!

Ok, I get you a little better now. Yeah, seeing much of any movement on the shot you are describing is probably not post ignition push. But I feel like there is a range to that behavior - there is probably much more post ignition push (productive) on a regular Bill Drill, less on a mid difficulty target like you are describing (less productive), less still on an even harder shot. Like maybe the mind knows that the demands of sights and trigger on the harder shot make it more necessary to hold more still longer (follow through) and there is time to be more relaxed in letting the gun get back to the target spot, and all that together is what produces the longer split?

Then it can also get convoluted because the shot might go low not just from classic gross anticipation/pushing the arms and gun down at the shoulders, but also from a mechanical failure to isolate the trigger finger or simply a coarse trigger press that levered the gun and the shot low.

The more I mix them in, the more I find that I just don't mind about them anymore. They just happen, you clear it, keep going. When I hit one and see an appreciable dip, my "penalty" is to finish the drill, then do remedial action with a Rogers staggered magazine. This helps.

I should try them again. It's been a while since I used them very much.

That's the rub - I don't flinch in dry fire. I flinch, very slightly, in live fire. I don't believe I can fix this in dry fire. I suspect it is partly the overpressure, the recoil, etc... All conspiring to flinch.

I'm sure I flinch worse in live fire, but sometimes I flinch in dry fire too. Usually by the mechanism of convulsing fingers. Feels nervy and I think it's a form of flinching.

No doubt it is worse in live fire, probably for anyone. Dry fire is where I feel like I can best establish a good trigger press without any anticipation, since the sights can easily be witnessed. The Rogers staggered ball and dummy is a way to try to bring the dry and live fire together. Then the trick is to make it work in live fire too.

With those dummy rounds mixed in and shooting your stage-lets, do you catch yourself in any pre/post ignition pushing on big close easy targets? Or are you using harder targets only?

[The Apprentice]

In the last year or so I have really tried to get better at shooting instead of just going to the range and blasting away. This lead me to taking a few class and doing some dedicated practice. I was able to diagnose myself with a flinch and ball and dummy really helped me out I'm sure you are a much better shooter than I but really its all just a matter of how well we execute the fundamentals. I was told once to never think you are to good to practice the fundamentals. While I am still for the most part working on the fundamentals I would like to be humble enough that years down the line when I have mastered some if a problem developed I would go back to basics and fix what needed fixing.

[nycnoob]

What do you think of accuracy drills?

I am not near the level you are but once TLG showed me that I could hit small targets at the distances which forced me to repeat my motions exactly but still see the bullet holes, I was able to straighten our a whole bunch of problems that I could not articulate.

Would some bill drills on target pasters help you watch the gun recoil?

[SouthNarc]

Here's a general question:

Can one actually cure a flinch or just diagnose it? I have thoughts but I'm just curious on the consensus.

[SLG]

Here's a general question:

Can one actually cure a flinch or just diagnose it? I have thoughts but I'm just curious on the consensus.

You cannot cure a flinch on a permanent level. At least, no one ever has.

Post-ignition push is not a problem, imo. I kinda figure if TGO does it, I'm ok. No timing issues, generally speaking, and not the same as a flinch.

Random ball and dummy, in a high cap mag (no more than 4 or 5 dummies), shot at a high rate of speed, seems to work very well, and most people only need 2 or 3 mags at most. everyone is different though.

Try shooting full bore .44's. That will make everything else seem like a .22 Works well for me.

[Sal Picante]

With those dummy rounds mixed in and shooting your stage-lets, do you catch yourself in any pre/post ignition pushing on big close easy targets? Or are you using harder targets only?

Going to have to experiment with this a bit and see what happens during tempo shifts. There were some interesting older posts (here and elsewhere) about split times dictating the the prevalence of the "push" to compensate for recoil. Some people (Dave Re) have described it as a kinesthetic response, etc...

I wonder if it is possible to train out/minimize ...

[Sal Picante]

You cannot cure a flinch on a permanent level. At least, no one ever has.

I agree that you can't fix it, but I wonder if we can GREATLY minimize it.