Sometimes Societies Go Crazy

[SamAdams]

Interesting article by James Kunstler -

http://www.24hgold.com/english/news-...+Kunstler&mk=1

[Jeep]

Interesting article by James Kunstler -

http://www.24hgold.com/english/news-...+Kunstler&mk=1

I stopped reading when he said the US was deliberately acting to "destabilize" Ukraine. "Bumbling about like an Ivy League professor in the real world" might be an apt description, but he seems to be one more person who has swallowed the Putin Kool-Aid that we cause Vlad's little Ukranian adventure. Nor did Spain go crazy in 1483 because, among other things, "Spain" didn't exist in 1483.

Putting aside those quibble, American society hasn't gone crazy; rather some deep-blue parts of America are nuts because leftist government always leads to craziness. Yeah, if you are in left-wing Democratic bastions like Baltimore or many colleges, things are out of control, but most of America isn't.

[SamAdams]

Perhaps what is commonly reported in our mainstream news doesn't match reality ? Regarding Russia -

On expansion of NATO after the fall of the USSR -

http://davidstockmanscontracorner.co...ussias-border/

On involvement behind the scenes in the Ukraine - (article makes a point - but why was the US involved and spending money at all ? What if $5 billion was spent by China to influence US politics ?)

http://www.politifact.com/punditfact...-anti-governm/

http://m.state.gov/md218804.htm

[Jeep]

Perhaps what is commonly reported in our mainstream news doesn't match reality ? Regarding Russia -

On expansion of NATO after the fall of the USSR -

http://davidstockmanscontracorner.co...ussias-border/

On involvement behind the scenes in the Ukraine -

http://www.politifact.com/punditfact...-anti-governm/

Much of what the mainstream media reports is nonsense, and what it fails to report is important. Overall, the reporting on Ukraine has been non-existent. But as your second source shows, the Putin story line about us dumping money into Ukraine to destabilize it is flatly wrong.

What actually happened in Ukraine is basically what happened in Egypt, Syria and elsewhere. Our President wants to be seen to be on the side of democracy so he talks loudly and normally walks without a stick.

After a lot of political turmoil--turmoil that in part was formented by Moscow, which insisted on trying to keep its corrupt and inept candidate in power. When that failed, the Moscow guy was forced to flee, and a new, somewhat anti-Moscow, corrupt and inept regime took power, Putin threw a fit, seized Crimea, and launched a war in eastern Ukraine to permanently destabilize the country until it came crawling back to daddy.

Putin doesn't hate Ukraine--he simply, like probably most Russians, believes that it really belongs to Russia and shouldn't be allowed to make its own way in the world. Before Obama, US policy was basically "ok, but don't make it obvious and keep the country technically independent." We never invited it to join NATO because we thought that would create far more problems that it was worth.

Then Obama, and his even more bumbling foreign policy, came in, and the Russians at first worried that he meant what he said about democracy and wanted Ukraine to join NATO. It then concluded that Obama was simply a talker--and based on Putin's irritation with his boy being forced out of the Presidency, it took action.

None of the Russian-generated conspiracy theories (which include the idea that current Western Ukrainians from L'viv are "Nazis") are true, though in keeping with Vlad's KGB background, they all have small kernels of truth to give them some plausibility.

[SamAdams]

I've been to Russia and Ukraine. That was a long time ago and was part of an official exchange between the US and these countries. Russia & Ukraine have been intertwined before America was an idea - for a thousand years. I have no idea what was/is happening recently in those places today. (I also don't speak or read Russian.) What I do have access to is news media reports from around the world. Are they accurate ? I dunno - I'm not on the ground there now. Do both sides likely push their own viewpoint and agenda ? Probably.

David Stockman, a high level member of the Reagan administration (link also provided above) has these reservations about US policy.

Is Ukraine of such vital interest to the U.S. that its worth risking a major war between nuclear powers ?

I don't see how.

http://theweek.com/articles/449691/u...-brief-history

[voodoo_man]

Without getting into a history lesson on Ukrainian and Russian relationship history, the short is that Ukraine (like Poland to a very lesser extent) has always been part of the Russian Empire, in whatever manifestation that embodies during that/those generation(s).
[history]
Having been born during the Soviet era I can say without hesitation that there is a very real divide between the Ukrainian and Russian cultures, they clash on a very basic level but they also share many similarities, it is really a sustained dichotomy of sorts.

Around 1922, when the 16 republics combined to become the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic, it effectively remanded the Ukrainian language to second place on its western side. Every school within the newly formed republic would teach Russian as a first language and whatever other language people wanted to learn for local social reasons or cultural reasons as a second language. Think about how English was taught in school and then you got to pick up an elective language. However, many languages (like Ukrainian and others) were still taught to such an extent that native born citizens of that specific region kept that language alive through the generations. If you were to go to college during that period then you would only learn in Russian, especially for hard science, math and medicine, this was anywhere in the republic, from Albania to Siberia.

When the wall fell, and each of the 16 republics could choose their own destiny once again, the Ukrainian people wanted "independence" as did others and it came with a price on both sides. Specifically the Ukrainians burned books in Russian and rewrote texts in Ukrainian that would not have otherwise been available to be read in that language.

Those like me, who were born during the Soviet era but not in Russia proper, can identify ourselves by many ways, though only the hard-labels are considered viable in the culture. You are either Russian or you are Ukrainian, being born in the Ukraine and speaking Russian does not automatically qualify you for either group, though being born in the Ukraine and only speaking Ukrainian (though it was very rare up until a decade or so after the wall fell) would preclude you from being Russian.

[/history]

[Jeep]

Without getting into a history lesson on Ukrainian and Russian relationship history, the short is that Ukraine (like Poland to a very lesser extent) has always been part of the Russian Empire,

Poland no. The Polish Lithuanian commonwealth and then Poland proper existed from the time that Russia was freeing itself from the Mongols. The only time that Poland--or more precisely parts of Poland, were part of the Russian empire were from the time of the partition in the 18th century until Germany seized the land in WWI.

Most of Ukraine was indeed part of the Russian Empire. However, most of what is now called Western Ukraine was part of Poland until the partition, at which time it came under Austrian (and later Austro-Hungarian) rule as part of Galicia. It was then part of Poland and seized by the Soviet Union in 1939, was conquered by the Germans in 1941 and reconquered by the Soviets in 1944. It was the one part of Ukraine that remembered what pre-Soviet life was like, did not go through the deliberate starvation of the 1930's that killed millions of Ukrainians to the east, and is probably currently the most nationalist part of the Ukraine.

The long-term solution, of course, is for the people in all three nations to try to get along--they are all related to one another, after all--but a history marked by the Mongol conquest, the long history of Tatar and Ottoman raids (the West generally has no idea how bitter those battles were or for how long they went on), Nazis and Communists makes that difficult to do, which is a shame.

[SamAdams]

Ukraine official hopes for war between NATO/USA and Russia - "would serve their interests" -

Interview with Prof Stephen Cohen NYU, Princeton:

https://audioboom.com/boos/3895404-t...westaccord-com

[voodoo_man]

The Ukraine seems to be a very serious anti Russia and anti Putin kick, they will everything in their power to make Russia seem as the undesirables and pleas for a war against them. Fact is, the US wont go to war with Russia, especially not over the Ukraine.

This is all just massive posturing, since the real threat is ISIS and until that is solved their issue (Ukraine / Russian conflict ) is not our issue.