Thinking a .12, give or take, edge in getting a shot off means much on the street, when a shot dead to the heart can leave the bad guy with 15 seconds or more of oxygenated blood in their brain to do with whatever they want tells me people haven't thought the whole problem out.
If one's safety counts on having that .12 second worth of time, then their tactics are horrible and they have set themselves up for failure in a very bad way.
I am the owner of Agile/Training and Consulting
www.agiletactical.com
Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's
Okay, I will take this right out of some study and give you reality. One of the guys I influenced as a young cop just dealt with this for real. He has spent a ton of time with me and after I moved I sent him to Scotty Reitz. Start with this....a guy who just brandished a pistol at numerous citizens and robbed a business at gun point and is now holding himself hostage is not a woman and children passengers in a stolen vehicle that is not looking right.....I have zero issues with being at contact ready on the armed felon holding himself hostage....let's not be dumb and conflat apples and oranges. So...you have suicidal guy at gun point with three officers. All holding on the bad guy. He decides to suicide by cop, and pulls the gun off his head and points it at an officer. My guy delivers a single precision hit dead center with a Federal +P 230 gr. .45 HST and essentially DRT's the guy. Here is the problem...one of the other guy fires three rounds and then malfunctions his 1911, which is good because he then had to stop putting anymore misses into a neighborhood. Even though he was lined up on hthe bad guy...and was fast, he missed three times. My student had a trainee who also fired and missed. All of these officers were lined up on target and when they go the "shoot signal" two of the three fired multiple misses which is exactly in line with what Mr. White is talking about in which they likely slammed the trigger on a "NOW" mega snatch. So......was being lined up on target a huge advantage? My guy also gave me the best shooting de-brief I have ever gotten as far as technical aspects of the shooting part.
My experience has been that super solid shooters who are confident can go from there lower ready (which you should be using for visual input on scenarios like this) position to eyeline as an auto response without issue. I have always found that the compulsive "point guns at everything" cops tend to be the worst shooters, least confident, and are trying to cheat the process to make up for their lack of skills. These also tend to be "screamers" and fear biters......a nasty cocktail of a tragedy or embarrassing situation waitng to happen. I do not want to be them. The best cops I have ever been around tend to run very confident and icely controlled from a hard locked ready while they manage a crisis.....that is who I have chosen to emmulate in how I train and how I worked in the field.
Last edited by Dagga Boy; 11-19-2015 at 11:58 AM.
Just a Hairy Special Snowflake supply clerk with no field experience, shooting an Asymetric carbine as a Try Hard. Snarky and easily butt hurt. Favorite animal is the Cape Buffalo....likely indicative of a personality disorder.
"If I had a grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton".
Complete agreement here, and this is the focus of my complaints with Fairfax County. In particular, using the gun as a means of intimidation to "show me your hands" is becoming the norm. Add to that someone poorly trained and finger on the trigger....sooner or later someone will die and potentially kill or seriously injure them AND ruin an officer's career.
Cody
That a well-regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the proper, natural, and safe defense of a free state;
Right. How many bad guys keep fighting though? Psychological stops get left out of these arguments.
I agree, I'd rather have a situation where time isn't so important. Sometimes it is, though.
I forget if you mentioned this in your prior thread, but in Fairfax are they drawing into a ready position and then issuing and order, expecting increased compliance, or are they also muzzling and getting on the trigger? If it's the latter, is there any policy governing use of force in that case? What about repercussions for police leadership in the event that something goes sideways, instead of just throwing the officer under the bus?
Think about what you just wrote. Seriously.
I am the owner of Agile/Training and Consulting
www.agiletactical.com
If I were still teaching, I'd be using your description of "screamers and fear biters" every chance I had. This is one of the best characterizations of of the problem I have ever heard!
Right. I said that right up front. I'm still not for giving away time, even if its "just a little."
There's no advantage to first hit, since people can keep on fighting? Pain resets the OODA loop. First hit matters, even if it's not a brain box shot that instantly drops them.
Ok, before everyone gets entrenched in positions based on hypotheticals in their own head vs in the other guys head.
1) We've established verifying the plate is first. That avoid the "innocents" from the start.
2) Felony stop on a stolen vehicle that complies is questionable to begin with. Carjacking, ok. Fresh steal, ok. Pursuit or long slow roll, ok. Stolen plate/car hit and they pull over as soon as you light them up? Read the situation. Not every "felony" requires a "felony stop". Shoplifting was a felony here until last July...
3) Speed matters in some instances. You won't convince me otherwise. There are a ton of bright line "yes" and a ton of bright line "no" situations. The border is fuzzy, though, and I will point my gun until I figure it out in some of those fuzzy situations. The person may turn out to be "innocent" at the end of the day, but every cop here knows (or should know) that you based your decisions on what you reasonably perceive at the time of the stop, not via crystal ball. Only the media and some of the high brass is issued one of those.
4) The fact that most stops are psychological and can be fought through is irrelevant to this conversation. Again, you will not convince me that first hit doesn't matter, that inducing pain and confusion in your opponent doesn't matter, or that even inducing flinch may not matter.
So, Reader's Digest version, there will be situations where gun pointing is warranted and the pointee turns out to be completely innocent. This is why plain clothes cops are trained that the uniformed cop is in charge until they verify who you. It's why I put my own description out on the radio if I am near, say, a burglary in progress and am going to respond along with uniformed guys. There will be instances where your tactics, training, and positioning just went to shit and you have to figure out a way out of it. Ex: Shooting in a laundry room at an apartment. I'm the only one even remotely close. Suspect resists and I'm holding her (yes, her, she shot someone over the use of a dryer) down in a joint lock she can't escape from but I can't get her other hand, which was trapped under her. Then a male suspect me yelling to let her go. You're damn right I pointed a gun at him. I'm outnumbered, I know there's at least one gun out, and I need to be ready to drop either one of them if it comes to that. That .12 seconds or whatever may make a lot of difference. So, it ended up with him prone in the parking lot at gunpoint, her joint locked and held down, until I got some help there and we got everyone cuffed. So, I'm not basing my opinions on studies, either. I'm basing the TIMES on studies.
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