What happened to quillions?

[314159]

I'm not much of a knife guy so maybe I should call them hand guards? Anyway, looking at bayonets and Kabars of the old school, they all have a large and functional cross piece to keep your hand and sliceable fingers from slipping forward. It seems to me very few knives, even so called tactical blades, have what appears to be useful versions of these anymore.
What am I missing? Could it be the good stuff still has them and the others are mere posers or has the style of usage/tactics changed to reduce the need for such. I'm certain it is much easier and cheaper to leave them off the design. Is this a hot topic in the knife world I know nothing about?

[Wondering Beard]

I have no idea whether it's a hot topic or not.

The thing about those old school guards is that they are big and make the knife harder to carry, never mind conceal.

It is a good thing to not ride up your own blade when, for example, stabbing into something, however, for defensive purposes, they don't need to be that big, nor do they need to be on both sides of the blade. A mix of ergonomical handles and minimal form of guard can be amply sufficient, depending of course on your own hand size.

I own a model of each of the three pictured Joe Watson knive as well the Emerson CQC 13. I have XL hands and have stabbed each pretty hard, in forward grip, onto wood.


The Watson mini Bowie caused no problems for me.




The Compact HiTS felt even better.



The Magni, however, felt less secure.




Not much of a guard there at all, but the finger groove and shape of the handle does a great job in keeping my hand locked solid to the knife handle.





I believe there should a decent guard on a knife without compromising the clean minimalist lines, but what that will be will depend on the user. Also, if your primary use is in reverse grip, a guard isn't much of concern at all if you place your thumb at the top of the handle (double guards can actually impede a proper reverse grip).

[pablo]

Guns happened. Stabbing through armor and chain mail wasn't really needed anymore. Dueling type sword and knife fighting largely went away. Better weapons were developed and knives transitioned to more utilitarian tools .

[314159]

Once again, I am no martial artist. The blades illustrated by Beard are exactly the sort that make me wonder. It seems to me, that a awkwardly, hurriedly, wetly gripped knife of these designs might be very unforgiving during a stab motion. If Beard says no problem stabbing into wood I feel obligated into believing him, any other opinions out there?
On the subject of art and general purpose tool the slicker designs obviously have a case. I was just wondering on the subject as a mass issue piece for soldiers for use as a tool and a weapon.

[1slow]

I've done stab tests into wood and into 1/2''+ wall thickness 10'' diameter hard cardboard tubes. Texture and shape of the handle and guard assist keeping your hand off of the blade during stabs.

A rough texture helps grip but requires grip firmness to create enough friction to keep hand off of the blade. This roughness is great in a grab and go emergency tool but wearing on a utility knife to be used all day.
Shape of handle and or guards can keep the hand off of the blade with less grip pressure than required by texture alone. Examples of this are guards on bowies and medieval daggers and handle shape on chooras, jambiyas.
A chefs knife is a common example of shape keeping the hand off of the blade in a stab.

In compact knives, Clinch Pics, Strider DB,SA and Watson's HiTS have both texture and a pronounced change in width between the handle nearest the blade and the back of the blade to keep your hand off of the blade.

Some thoughts:
You may hit a hard object on the way to the target, pistol knife ,gear etc..., your grip may be weakened by blood loss, graying out from impact, cold, fatigue. Having both shape and texture assure your grip should help.
Very large pronounced guards and shapes make a knife harder to hide and to make.
A knife that can be used forward or reverse grip, edge in or out is versatile.
Being able to tell how the knife is positioned and oriented by feel in the hand, in a hurry is helpful.

[1slow]

Maybe Tinker Pearce will weigh in on this. He is an expert sword and knife maker and very knowledgeable in their use.

[314159]

1slow, you express my thoughts precisely. Compact blades are a compromise to begin with, so the lack of guards is just one more, no biggie. In the realm of tactical/military belt knives I hope the lack of guards isn't just a function of cost and/or fashion. I wonder though.

[Hambo]

I'm not sure what you mean by small blades, but you don't need a bowie to kill somebody. I've seen it done very effectively with 3-4" lockblades with no guard. On the other hand, I would say that making a flat one piece blade/tang knife with paracord has to be easier than making a Randall Model 1 or similar. I wouldn't say fashion is dictating the knives pictured above, it's the intended use that drives the style. These days you don't find much about parrying an opponent's blade with yours or your hand guard.

[314159]

As big a fan as I am of swashbuckling rapscallions, I probably shouldn't have used the term quillions. Technically correct as it may be, hand guards are what I mean. My only real concern is not slicing the user's hand up during ANY vigorous usage of the blade. A stabbing motion certainly being one of the more obvious, but not only, dangers.

[drummer]

You are referring to guards. Quillions are cross guards and are only used on reproduction daggers and rapiers and the occasional fighting bowie (James Keating's Crossada is a prime example of quillions).

Guards havent't gone anywhere. More traditional designs such as bowies and daggers still have them. The truth is that the simple full tang knives which are popular nowdays are easier and faster to manufacture than manufacturing a knife with a guard. Especially if you don't use a mill to set the shoulders. Getting a good, tight fit with stainless steel takes practice and patience.

The other thing is in our current society, much like handgun carry, we want our knives compact and comfortable. Therefore, when fixed blades are carried, they should be lacking in protuberances that irritate us, such as a guard. The other consideration is that the double guard can hamper utility. Therefore, most knives are designed more for EDC utility than sticking and stabbing living creatures.